Pinched Mantle
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NaH2O
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Steve - you may want to start a new thread in this same forum, so this thread doesn't get taken off topic, and also will get you more attention based on your question. Have a peek at the workshop Barry put together, and see if it helps with your set-up: Tridacnid Workshop
Minh Nguyen
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I had PM disease in my tank for at least 1.5 years. I was fighting this problem before anybody mention. I think I was the first reefer described this problem and discussed about the treatment I used for this disease way back when (I can't remember anymore.) If anybody interested, they can search on Reefs.org and Reefcentral.com in the early 2000-2002 time frame.
Anything that irritated the clam will cause it mantel to pinched therefore there are many cause of clams that have pinched mantels.
The disease that I first described as Pinched Mantel must have the following:
1. Other cause of irritation to the mantels must be rule out (injury, parasitic snails, bites from fish ect…)
2. The pinching must be at the same place day after day, and worsen and spread from there.
3. The pinching worse as the day goes on, there will be stringy secretion by the clams from the pinched area.
4. The disease is slow in onset and clams will last a long time before succumb due this disease. The larger the clam, the longer he lasted.
5. This disease does not bother clam that much initially. With minor problem, clams can still show growth. However, as the disease spread to larger area of the clam, the clam will decline. My 18 inches T. gigas have the disease for 1.5 years before treatment. He did fine after treatment.
6. Untreated this disease is uniformly fatal. I have no clams that spontaneously recover from this disease.
7. Initially, this infection shows no sign. A clam can be normal without visible irritation to the mantel and still carry the disease. I am not sure how long this period lasted. This is a conclusion I came up with from treating this disease in my tank because I cannot eradicated this disease from my tank unless I treated all of my clams, even the healthy appearing one at the same time.
If this is what you have in your tank, you have two options:
1. If you have a disease free, clam free tank, a 15-30 minute FW dip and move to a disease free tank is all you need to do.
2. If you can’t move your clams to a new tank, treat all the clams at the same time will most likely eradicated your tank of this disease.
I was able to cure my clams with both of these methods. I tried the first method find it effective. Because my T. gigas was too large, I have no choice but use the second method, and found that it is effective in curing my tank of this problem.
Anything that irritated the clam will cause it mantel to pinched therefore there are many cause of clams that have pinched mantels.
The disease that I first described as Pinched Mantel must have the following:
1. Other cause of irritation to the mantels must be rule out (injury, parasitic snails, bites from fish ect…)
2. The pinching must be at the same place day after day, and worsen and spread from there.
3. The pinching worse as the day goes on, there will be stringy secretion by the clams from the pinched area.
4. The disease is slow in onset and clams will last a long time before succumb due this disease. The larger the clam, the longer he lasted.
5. This disease does not bother clam that much initially. With minor problem, clams can still show growth. However, as the disease spread to larger area of the clam, the clam will decline. My 18 inches T. gigas have the disease for 1.5 years before treatment. He did fine after treatment.
6. Untreated this disease is uniformly fatal. I have no clams that spontaneously recover from this disease.
7. Initially, this infection shows no sign. A clam can be normal without visible irritation to the mantel and still carry the disease. I am not sure how long this period lasted. This is a conclusion I came up with from treating this disease in my tank because I cannot eradicated this disease from my tank unless I treated all of my clams, even the healthy appearing one at the same time.
If this is what you have in your tank, you have two options:
1. If you have a disease free, clam free tank, a 15-30 minute FW dip and move to a disease free tank is all you need to do.
2. If you can’t move your clams to a new tank, treat all the clams at the same time will most likely eradicated your tank of this disease.
I was able to cure my clams with both of these methods. I tried the first method find it effective. Because my T. gigas was too large, I have no choice but use the second method, and found that it is effective in curing my tank of this problem.
cheeks69
Well-known member
Minh Nguyen said:
How long would you have to keep the Clams in the disease free tank before adding to the display ?
Since all my Clams have died how long would I have to wait for the protozoan to be eradicated from my tank ?
Minh Nguyen
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I had a DSB in my tank, and small organism got to get eatten very quickly. I just dipped all my clams and return them to the idsplay tank. This took care fo the problem. In a tank that hve less predation, I am not sure but I don't think it take very long to clear the disease if there are no clams in it. Perhaps 2-4 weeks, or even less.
I did some search and got the very first thread that I discussed Pinched Mantel Disease back in 2002 here:
http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=169654#169654
A few more at reefland.com
http://www.reefland.com/forum/reef-aquariums/8607-ever-seen-pinched-mantles.html
And Reefcentral.com
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131880&highlight=Pinched+Mantel
I did some search and got the very first thread that I discussed Pinched Mantel Disease back in 2002 here:
http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=169654#169654
A few more at reefland.com
http://www.reefland.com/forum/reef-aquariums/8607-ever-seen-pinched-mantles.html
And Reefcentral.com
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131880&highlight=Pinched+Mantel
cheeks69
Well-known member
I've lost 6 clams including an incredible looking Maxima to this damn disease. The last 4 was because of one I tried to save, got a good deal on it and it didn't show any signs of PM
Minh Nguyen
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The disease started in my tank because I was cocky. A friend of my have a sick clam. I though it was due to poor tank condition. It did not occured to me at the time that it may have an infectious disease. All the information I read about clams did not mention anything like this before. I wanted to same this clam and put him into my tank. From now on, I have small office tank that I use to quarantine clams for a month or two when I first buy them before put them into my main tank. Losing clams like these hurts
cheeks69
Well-known member
Minh Nguyen said:Losing clams like these hurts
Wow those were gorgeous, I can definitely relate
Any one think this is PM .I got three 6" new clams at the same time , i had no clams in my tank over a year the older clams die when my Anemone kill the tank.
All of the new clams i got they look like something was munching on there mantels i saw this when i open the box that they came in from LA it never got in the LFS water i got them home and then i saw the problem , the matle is not curling up or pinched but it has some bubbles and some slime where the small piece of mantel are missing.
Any ideas ?
All of the new clams i got they look like something was munching on there mantels i saw this when i open the box that they came in from LA it never got in the LFS water i got them home and then i saw the problem , the matle is not curling up or pinched but it has some bubbles and some slime where the small piece of mantel are missing.
Any ideas ?
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cheeks69
Well-known member
IMHO I don't think so. Is it possible that one of your fish nipped it ?
I set up a video cam
but no one take a bite yet. if some one in the tank nip on them they will be all closed up as you see they are wide open here is the other one .
Thank you MAXX i never saw any of my clams doing this before
I hope is not PM like you said . They are good size clams and not to expensive .
I hope they make it .
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Sherman
Has Met Willis
Barry/Chris/Nikki/whoever,
I'm sure I'm asking a question that's already been answered, but I can't seem to find it directly in any of these 28 pages. I have 3 maximas (3", 3", 6") and 1 crocea (4"). The crocea was in the tank first, and has been part of this discussion a few pages back. At this time, the crocea has been pinched down completely inside the shell for over 10 months. One of the maximas (3") has also contracted this disease, and has been sucked into the shell for about 2 months. The other 3" maxima is now showing the very first signs of ruffle on the edges, so I know it's coming. The final clam, the 6" teardrop, still looks great, but I can assume this clam will also fall victim to PM if I don't do something.
So... I've fresh water dipped the crocea before (30 minutes) with no effect. I've done an Interceptor treatment, a Flatworm Exit treatment, and a simultaneous Int/FWE double dose. I've tried quadrupling my carbon regiment, which usually runs 24/7.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem that a FWD followed by placement into a new body of water free of PM seems to be the answer. If I understand correctly, placement back into the same aquarium only subjects the clam to the same protozoan/virus/bacteria/pest/whatever that causes PM, and the PM will return. So I will be using a quarantine tank, and have a few questions.
Is it appropriate to FWD the clam(s) for 30 minutes, then place them into the new tank? This tank is cycled and has LR, sand, and some macro.
Is it OK to dip all four clams simultaneously and place them in the QT simultaneously?
Has anyone figured out the time it tanks for the existing tank to be free of whatever causes PM, so I know when to re-introduce back into my main tank?
Are there any other precautions I should be wary of?
I'm sure I'm asking a question that's already been answered, but I can't seem to find it directly in any of these 28 pages. I have 3 maximas (3", 3", 6") and 1 crocea (4"). The crocea was in the tank first, and has been part of this discussion a few pages back. At this time, the crocea has been pinched down completely inside the shell for over 10 months. One of the maximas (3") has also contracted this disease, and has been sucked into the shell for about 2 months. The other 3" maxima is now showing the very first signs of ruffle on the edges, so I know it's coming. The final clam, the 6" teardrop, still looks great, but I can assume this clam will also fall victim to PM if I don't do something.
So... I've fresh water dipped the crocea before (30 minutes) with no effect. I've done an Interceptor treatment, a Flatworm Exit treatment, and a simultaneous Int/FWE double dose. I've tried quadrupling my carbon regiment, which usually runs 24/7.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem that a FWD followed by placement into a new body of water free of PM seems to be the answer. If I understand correctly, placement back into the same aquarium only subjects the clam to the same protozoan/virus/bacteria/pest/whatever that causes PM, and the PM will return. So I will be using a quarantine tank, and have a few questions.
Is it appropriate to FWD the clam(s) for 30 minutes, then place them into the new tank? This tank is cycled and has LR, sand, and some macro.
Is it OK to dip all four clams simultaneously and place them in the QT simultaneously?
Has anyone figured out the time it tanks for the existing tank to be free of whatever causes PM, so I know when to re-introduce back into my main tank?
Are there any other precautions I should be wary of?
NaH2O
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Sherman - I'll post some initial thoughts on your questions, and hopefully I'll have some more time to think about it or someone else can share their thoughts, too.
I don't remember if you are using an Iron based phosphate remover?
I would say, if you are going to do another FWD, to do all the clams at the same time and move them into a separate tank. I did this with both of my clams, and they remained in QT for a couple of weeks. When they went back to the display, they both showed signs of PM again, and I couldn't save them. I also was also treating with Metronidazole in QT, and doing FWDs up to 45 minutes in length, if my memory serves me correctly (I haven't looked back in the thread). When thinking about my failure with this disease, I wonder if there are some type of rock boring clams in my system that perhaps were able to carry the protozoan, which then reinfected my clams when put back in the display. It is all guessing though, which is unfortunate. I went back a few pages, because I thought Minh Nguyen posted some more info you might find helpful. It says that a time frame of 2-4 weeks may be all that's necessary to clear the disease from a display. I'd wait 4-6 weeks based on my own experiences. I have yet to read through the links, and hope to in the next day or so to get a handle on what was one a few years ago.
I am surprised your Crocea is still alive, based on how withdrawn the mantel was. I can't think of any precautions, other than making sure your FWD water is of the same temp and pH of the tank.
Hopefully, you'll get these guys nursed back to health. Let us know how everything goes.
I don't remember if you are using an Iron based phosphate remover?
I would say, if you are going to do another FWD, to do all the clams at the same time and move them into a separate tank. I did this with both of my clams, and they remained in QT for a couple of weeks. When they went back to the display, they both showed signs of PM again, and I couldn't save them. I also was also treating with Metronidazole in QT, and doing FWDs up to 45 minutes in length, if my memory serves me correctly (I haven't looked back in the thread). When thinking about my failure with this disease, I wonder if there are some type of rock boring clams in my system that perhaps were able to carry the protozoan, which then reinfected my clams when put back in the display. It is all guessing though, which is unfortunate. I went back a few pages, because I thought Minh Nguyen posted some more info you might find helpful. It says that a time frame of 2-4 weeks may be all that's necessary to clear the disease from a display. I'd wait 4-6 weeks based on my own experiences. I have yet to read through the links, and hope to in the next day or so to get a handle on what was one a few years ago.
I am surprised your Crocea is still alive, based on how withdrawn the mantel was. I can't think of any precautions, other than making sure your FWD water is of the same temp and pH of the tank.
Hopefully, you'll get these guys nursed back to health. Let us know how everything goes.
cheeks69
Well-known member
I waited a couple of months and have since added two Tridacnas a Crocea and a Maxima and no signs at all of PM.
Sherman
Has Met Willis
Cheeks, were these new clams, or the same ones previously infected?
Nikki, thank you. And no phosphate treatments for me.
Nikki, thank you. And no phosphate treatments for me.
cheeks69
Well-known member
All the Clams I had with PM eventually died. These Clams are new in my system and had been at the LFS for several months showing no signs of PM, that's the only reason I bought them.
THe Crocea has been in there for almost two months and the Teardrop Maxima about a month.
