Herefishyfishy
Smart Bass
I would like to know Andy's definition of bad bacteria. We're not talking about fish pathogens nor human contagions, but Nitrobacters. I think Andy was either misunderstood or is talking out his... siphon?:lol: (sorry)
Poisonous Palythoa Polyps
- Thread starter dfulton
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I would like to know Andy's definition of bad bacteria. We're not talking about fish pathogens nor human contagions, but Nitrobacters. I think Andy was either misunderstood or is talking out his... siphon?:lol: (sorry)
DonW
R.I.P.
Nobody is doubting illness the palytheory just doesn't make sense.
Being a water soluable vasoconstrictor you could put them in a blender and then back in 75g of water and the dilution would render them harmless. Bacteria makes more sense and would get killed by the amoxicillian. If its bacteria it will come back as its fed fish food nutrients since chemipure is a low dose antibiotic. The concern is your family getting sick again once the tank has reestablished not wether or not the fish store made the proper diagnosis.
Don
Being a water soluable vasoconstrictor you could put them in a blender and then back in 75g of water and the dilution would render them harmless. Bacteria makes more sense and would get killed by the amoxicillian. If its bacteria it will come back as its fed fish food nutrients since chemipure is a low dose antibiotic. The concern is your family getting sick again once the tank has reestablished not wether or not the fish store made the proper diagnosis.
Don
dfulton
Active member
I would like to know how the cut on Andy's thumb is doing after sticking it in our water!
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dfulton
Active member
Absolutely we love to hear all feedback, as we are not a Marine Biologists or a Microbiologist Research Scientists. I will post more information as time goes by. But send in your comments, as there are plenty of highly intelligent people out there that may have insight to this strange ordeal. I appreciate all the comments posted on this thread. Our family gives Saltwater City a five star rating for all their help with our matter. They have spent countless hours working with us to resolve our problem. Owner Trev Dakan is in fact a Marine Biologist, and Andy is, I believe, a Microbiologist/Research Scientist, himself.
Thank you for your posts!
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jag3534
Well-known member
If I were you, I would "gut" the tank. I don't the risk is worth it if some of these pop back up in the rocks, if you really think thats what did it. Go give it back to the guy you got it from and tell him what he gave you in that tank! Get your money back and get new stuff! Especially if its making your kids sick, its not worth it to have a fish tank, you know?
Kurt_Nelson
Well-known member
While I'm not doubting the illness at all, or the fact that palys can be toxic, as others have mentioned... the paly theory just doesn't seem to fit the bill. Just curious... you say you've kept FOWLR for nearly 20 years - are you using the same procedure for making saltwater for this tank as you've done in the past? Or are you doing anything different? Tap water or RO/DI? Or are you buying premade saltwater? Just trying to think of some other possible causes...
Kurt_Nelson
Well-known member
OK... now that I think about it more, scratch the water idea. I forgot when I wrote that, that the previous owner had the same issues, and I'm assuming that you didn't take his water and put it in your tank.
The more I think about this, and reread this, the more it sounds like a mold/mildew allergy - and a bad one. Not sure how it's happening, but it just doesn't seem to fit the MO of palytoxin. Yeah... you hear about folks having serious run ins with palythoas or zoanthids, but it normally involves rubbing eyes, sticking fingers in mouth, etc after handling the polyps... and then the symptoms are neurological. And it also varies widely from person to person. Even if it were toxins from the polyps, the odds of everyone involved having the same seriousness of reaction would be pretty slim - including the guy you bought the stuff from.
Again... not doubting the illness, just the cause. I have a lot of respect for the folks at Saltwater City, and have always found their advice to be spot on. But if it was my health on the line, I wouldn't consider this a "resolved" problem.
The more I think about this, and reread this, the more it sounds like a mold/mildew allergy - and a bad one. Not sure how it's happening, but it just doesn't seem to fit the MO of palytoxin. Yeah... you hear about folks having serious run ins with palythoas or zoanthids, but it normally involves rubbing eyes, sticking fingers in mouth, etc after handling the polyps... and then the symptoms are neurological. And it also varies widely from person to person. Even if it were toxins from the polyps, the odds of everyone involved having the same seriousness of reaction would be pretty slim - including the guy you bought the stuff from.
Again... not doubting the illness, just the cause. I have a lot of respect for the folks at Saltwater City, and have always found their advice to be spot on. But if it was my health on the line, I wouldn't consider this a "resolved" problem.
jhampton_wsu
Well-known member
If it was me and my family's health I'd take it to the dump.
dfulton
Active member
Sorry, I do have several photos of our tank when we had the palys, but I need to have my husband size them down, as I am an ignoramus when it comes to computers. The pics were not taken with a high tech camera either, so although we have some great shots, they don't look like some of the beautiful ones I see on other people's profiles.
When we were in Saltwater City a couple days ago, there were some palys on display that looked very simular, yet ours were a much more purply color with a tiny bright green center.
Currently our family is doing well. Although we understand that a quick simple solution would be to chuck out everything, we first want to try to fix what we have, as we enjoy challenges, and there is alot of beautiful stuff in our tank worth saving, IF WE CAN. My son stays away from the tank and is fine, and we do want to not be hasty, as long as we continue to be feeling well. Sometimes a doctor says to amputate, and another may find that it is not necessary. We have learned SO MUCH from this experience.
Going thru all of this makes me truley appreciate God's enormous aquarium.
We only have just a tiny piece of the ocean in our living room, encountering bizarrre and complex problems, yet in God's ocean, He keeps everything perfectly in check. It really does amaze me to no end.
Since I am on THAT train of thought, should anyone every have a bible question you would like answered, I have a wonderful website to refer you to:
Check out: www.AskYourPreacher.org
burning2nd
Well-known member
palys are just bit zoa's right?
dfulton
Active member
I'm no expert, but I found this quote after googling Palythoa Polyps (Button Polyp)
PALYTHOA POLYPS (Button Polyp)
They contain a substance known as Palytoxin, a highly lethal poison. When handling, wear gloves at all times. Scratching your eyes after handling without protection may result in permanent blindness, and if the poison enters a cut it may make your dreadfully ill. (ALso Zoanthids.)
http://www2.hawaii.edu/~bemorton/Neuroscience/Neurochemistry/Palytoxin.html
DonW
R.I.P.
Here is a little more accurate description and one that explains the real affects. The heart rate is the real clue and the affects are real short term.
http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html
http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html
burning2nd
Well-known member
change the T to a G and you have BIg...zoa's right
never mind i figured it out... they are
Zoanthus and Palythoa
are in the same order and family but not genus?
never mind i figured it out... they are
Zoanthus and Palythoa
are in the same order and family but not genus?
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dfulton
Active member
Vibrio is also an interesting subject, should someone not be familiar with it:
Apparently it is EXTREMELY rare.
http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/dfbmd/disease_listing/vibriov_gi.html
Apparently it is EXTREMELY rare.
http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/dfbmd/disease_listing/vibriov_gi.html
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Pentagona
Snail Turd
Site of ActionPalytoxin acts at the cell membranes to make them permeable to cations - positively charged ions, typically sodium, potassium, and calcium. Many functions of cells depend upon controlling the flow of these ions in and out of the cell, so disrupting this traffic is very dangerous.
At the physiological level, the most sensitive target is the myocardium, or muscular component of the heart, and the primary effect is vasoconstriction or rapid narrowing of blood vessels in the heart and in the lungs. Another effect is hemolysis, or the destruction of the red blood cells. These three effects taken together cut off the oxygen supply and the victim suffocates.
Source
Palytoxin was first isolated from the soft coral Palythoa toxica. Several species of Palythoa are used in aquariums, but do not produce the toxin. Originally, it was only found in a single tidal pool on the island of Maui in Hawaii and native Hawaiians used to coat spear points with a red seaweed from the pool. Toxin-containing corals appear to be randomly and sparingly distributed throughout the South Pacific and there is now a school of thought that suggests that the coral is simply concentrating the toxin made by a dinoflagellate (a small single-celled organism) called Ostreopis siamensis.
Agent Properties
Palytoxin is the most toxic natural product known, it is estimated that the lethal dose for a human is less than five micrograms. Supplies are extremely limited as it is only found at low concentrations in the corals that do contain it, although this may change if a microbial source is found.
Palytoxin is an incredibly complex molecule with 64 stereocenters and a backbone of 115 contiguous carbon atoms. Most chemists would believe it to be beyond the capabilities of modern chemistry to make it in the laboratory, but this was managed in 1989.
Symptoms •Angina-like chest pains;
•asthma-like breathing difficulties;
•tachycardia (racing pulse);
•unstable blood pressure with episodes of low blood pressure;
•hemolysis;
•electrocardiograms show and exagerrated T wave.
•
Onset of Symptoms
Rapid, with death occurring within minutes.
Rapid diagnostic assay
No.
Antidote
Vasodilators are effective if delivered immediately by injection into the ventricle of the heart. The most effective are papverine and isosorbide dinitrate. If exposure is expected, pretreatment with hydrocortisone an hour beforehand may offer protection.
Supportive Care
Treatment of symptoms, probably as for a coronary spasm.
Inactivation Palytoxins are stable in seawater and lower alcohols.
Toxicity
Intraperitoneal LD50 in mice is <100 ng/kg, putting it in the same class as botulin. Generally speaking, the LD50 is in this range for intravenous and intraperitoneal routes for all mammals tested.
Site of Action
Palytoxin acts at the cell membranes to make them permeable to cations - positively charged ions, typically sodium, potassium, and calcium. Many functions of cells depend upon controlling the flow of these ions in and out of the cell, so disrupting this traffic is very dangerous.
At the physiological level, the most sensitive target is the myocardium, or muscular component of the heart, and the primary effect is vasoconstriction or rapid narrowing of blood vessels in the heart and in the lungs. Another effect is hemolysis, or the destruction of the red blood cells. These three effects taken together cut off the oxygen supply and the victim suffocates.
Source
Palytoxin was first isolated from the soft coral Palythoa toxica. Several species of Palythoa are used in aquariums, but do not produce the toxin. Originally, it was only found in a single tidal pool on the island of Maui in Hawaii and native Hawaiians used to coat spear points with a red seaweed from the pool. Toxin-containing corals appear to be randomly and sparingly distributed throughout the South Pacific and there is now a school of thought that suggests that the coral is simply concentrating the toxin made by a dinoflagellate (a small single-celled organism) called Ostreopis siamensis.
Agent Properties
Palytoxin is the most toxic natural product known, it is estimated that the lethal dose for a human is less than five micrograms. Supplies are extremely limited as it is only found at low concentrations in the corals that do contain it, although this may change if a microbial source is found.
Palytoxin is an incredibly complex molecule with 64 stereocenters and a backbone of 115 contiguous carbon atoms. Most chemists would believe it to be beyond the capabilities of modern chemistry to make it in the laboratory, but this was managed in 1989.
http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html
Seems that some of your symptoms fit the bill of Palytoxin Exposure while others IE Nausea/Vomiting, High fever do not. However, there's nothing to suggest that there isn't the possibility of concentration of toxin occurring in an aquarium setting especially if the previous owners neglected water changes to dilute the consentration of toxins in the tank, or a build up of some other bacteria to cause the other symptoms. In any case, for your families safety, and for the benefit of the rest of us that keep reefs, I would certainly take a water sample to a lab and positively identify what the toxin/toxins are. Marine bacterias and toxins are nothing to mess around with and can have long lasting effects if over exposed to them.
At the physiological level, the most sensitive target is the myocardium, or muscular component of the heart, and the primary effect is vasoconstriction or rapid narrowing of blood vessels in the heart and in the lungs. Another effect is hemolysis, or the destruction of the red blood cells. These three effects taken together cut off the oxygen supply and the victim suffocates.
Source
Palytoxin was first isolated from the soft coral Palythoa toxica. Several species of Palythoa are used in aquariums, but do not produce the toxin. Originally, it was only found in a single tidal pool on the island of Maui in Hawaii and native Hawaiians used to coat spear points with a red seaweed from the pool. Toxin-containing corals appear to be randomly and sparingly distributed throughout the South Pacific and there is now a school of thought that suggests that the coral is simply concentrating the toxin made by a dinoflagellate (a small single-celled organism) called Ostreopis siamensis.
Agent Properties
Palytoxin is the most toxic natural product known, it is estimated that the lethal dose for a human is less than five micrograms. Supplies are extremely limited as it is only found at low concentrations in the corals that do contain it, although this may change if a microbial source is found.
Palytoxin is an incredibly complex molecule with 64 stereocenters and a backbone of 115 contiguous carbon atoms. Most chemists would believe it to be beyond the capabilities of modern chemistry to make it in the laboratory, but this was managed in 1989.
Symptoms •Angina-like chest pains;
•asthma-like breathing difficulties;
•tachycardia (racing pulse);
•unstable blood pressure with episodes of low blood pressure;
•hemolysis;
•electrocardiograms show and exagerrated T wave.
•
Onset of Symptoms
Rapid, with death occurring within minutes.
Rapid diagnostic assay
No.
Antidote
Vasodilators are effective if delivered immediately by injection into the ventricle of the heart. The most effective are papverine and isosorbide dinitrate. If exposure is expected, pretreatment with hydrocortisone an hour beforehand may offer protection.
Supportive Care
Treatment of symptoms, probably as for a coronary spasm.
Inactivation Palytoxins are stable in seawater and lower alcohols.
Toxicity
Intraperitoneal LD50 in mice is <100 ng/kg, putting it in the same class as botulin. Generally speaking, the LD50 is in this range for intravenous and intraperitoneal routes for all mammals tested.
Site of Action
Palytoxin acts at the cell membranes to make them permeable to cations - positively charged ions, typically sodium, potassium, and calcium. Many functions of cells depend upon controlling the flow of these ions in and out of the cell, so disrupting this traffic is very dangerous.
At the physiological level, the most sensitive target is the myocardium, or muscular component of the heart, and the primary effect is vasoconstriction or rapid narrowing of blood vessels in the heart and in the lungs. Another effect is hemolysis, or the destruction of the red blood cells. These three effects taken together cut off the oxygen supply and the victim suffocates.
Source
Palytoxin was first isolated from the soft coral Palythoa toxica. Several species of Palythoa are used in aquariums, but do not produce the toxin. Originally, it was only found in a single tidal pool on the island of Maui in Hawaii and native Hawaiians used to coat spear points with a red seaweed from the pool. Toxin-containing corals appear to be randomly and sparingly distributed throughout the South Pacific and there is now a school of thought that suggests that the coral is simply concentrating the toxin made by a dinoflagellate (a small single-celled organism) called Ostreopis siamensis.
Agent Properties
Palytoxin is the most toxic natural product known, it is estimated that the lethal dose for a human is less than five micrograms. Supplies are extremely limited as it is only found at low concentrations in the corals that do contain it, although this may change if a microbial source is found.
Palytoxin is an incredibly complex molecule with 64 stereocenters and a backbone of 115 contiguous carbon atoms. Most chemists would believe it to be beyond the capabilities of modern chemistry to make it in the laboratory, but this was managed in 1989.
http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html
Seems that some of your symptoms fit the bill of Palytoxin Exposure while others IE Nausea/Vomiting, High fever do not. However, there's nothing to suggest that there isn't the possibility of concentration of toxin occurring in an aquarium setting especially if the previous owners neglected water changes to dilute the consentration of toxins in the tank, or a build up of some other bacteria to cause the other symptoms. In any case, for your families safety, and for the benefit of the rest of us that keep reefs, I would certainly take a water sample to a lab and positively identify what the toxin/toxins are. Marine bacterias and toxins are nothing to mess around with and can have long lasting effects if over exposed to them.
Pentagona
Snail Turd
Sorry Don, didn't see you had posted the link earlier.
arc eye
Well-known member
How about sponges and algae in the tank? Did the rock smell noxious when it was out of the water and you guys were transporting it?
dfulton
Active member
Interesting question. No, I don't remember it smelling strange. Just smelled like the sea. Our live rock is filled with a variety of sponges, tubeworms, seashells or clams, etc. Pardon me, as I am Dave's wife typing here, and I'm so new to all of this. There is a "pink fluffy anemone" and a "long tentacle anemone" that has a bright red stalk and blue/green tentacles. It's really cool. There is a large cluster of pink "mushrooms"?? The live rock has alot of bright purple and hot pink coral on it. Also Andy pointed out there were some different sponges that are yellow and white.
Also, we have this strange "blue thing" that to me looks like coral, but Andy says it is some kind of an animal... It's about 4 inches long imbedded in the rock, and about as big around as your thumb, it is bright tourquoise in color, with veins runing thru it. There is so much cool stuff on all this live rock, that's why we are hoping to save it all. Not alot of algae... A little, and I have a few "sailor's eyeballs" and have combatted some bad Majano Sea Anemones here and there, but that seems to now be under control.
I actually put on some gloves yesterday up to my armpits and reached into the tank and killed 3 tiny Majano's with that "Joe's Juice", and I do still see mabey 1 or 2 small baby Paly Polyps growing. My husand will have to chip those off. We still plan to remove all the sand to go bare bottom.
I didn't seem to get a cough or have any reaction this time going into the tank. I do agree with you all that it would be an excellent idea to have the water tested by a professional in this department. Someone else recommended a place in Tacoma. We are up North. Is there somewhere closer we could take a water sample to? My husband will be seeing his DR on Monday.
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I'd like to add my $.02 in... You can just take it as that. Not much you can buy with two pennies now-a-days, so its not worth much. LOL
I run an online business based out of Honolulu. I won't go any further than that as i am not here to promote my business, but here as a hobbyist.
I deal with Hawaiian Zoas and Palys on a daily basis for quite a long time. I have never once had an experience as explained here in this thread.
I agree that palytoxin is nothing to joke about, but a lot of people are quick to call it out when all they have is some type of bacterial infection. As mentioned previously in this thread, only a few micro-grams are enough to kill a human. If you were in contact with palytoxin, you would not be online to type about it.
IMO, to say palytoxin or anything from the palythoa has/had become airborne in the form of fumes is very hard for me to believe.
The "Limu Make O Hana" or seaweed of death is describing the Hawaiian Button Polyp. (Protopalythoa) I have seen huge patches of these in the wild and they can be described as a moss like patch. This is how the Ancient Hawaiians described them.
(Cool page with the Ancient & Modern legends of palytoxin)
I have dealt with many of the button polyps first hand. There are many color morphs of the Hawaiian button polyps.
I am no scientist, but my theory is that the protopalythoas are the ones to be the most cautious with. Everyone should be very cautious when handling any type from the Zoanthidae family.
Protopalythoas create a slime coat like an acropora would when out of the water. This slime is what is believed to be used by the Hawaiians on their spears.
Real palythoas... (not people eaters, Zoanthus Gigantus, or any large Zoanthus sp.) like Palythoa Caesia as well as any of the Zoanthus species do not create this slime.
OK, i'm rambling now...
When i first read of the original posters symptoms i thought black mold. Rainy part of the country as well as 75 gallon tank. I can bet there is a lot of moisture in your home.
Sorry my 2 pennies turned into a couple dimes, but that is all i wanted to mention.
I run an online business based out of Honolulu. I won't go any further than that as i am not here to promote my business, but here as a hobbyist.
I deal with Hawaiian Zoas and Palys on a daily basis for quite a long time. I have never once had an experience as explained here in this thread.
I agree that palytoxin is nothing to joke about, but a lot of people are quick to call it out when all they have is some type of bacterial infection. As mentioned previously in this thread, only a few micro-grams are enough to kill a human. If you were in contact with palytoxin, you would not be online to type about it.
IMO, to say palytoxin or anything from the palythoa has/had become airborne in the form of fumes is very hard for me to believe.
The "Limu Make O Hana" or seaweed of death is describing the Hawaiian Button Polyp. (Protopalythoa) I have seen huge patches of these in the wild and they can be described as a moss like patch. This is how the Ancient Hawaiians described them.
(Cool page with the Ancient & Modern legends of palytoxin)
I have dealt with many of the button polyps first hand. There are many color morphs of the Hawaiian button polyps.
I am no scientist, but my theory is that the protopalythoas are the ones to be the most cautious with. Everyone should be very cautious when handling any type from the Zoanthidae family.
Protopalythoas create a slime coat like an acropora would when out of the water. This slime is what is believed to be used by the Hawaiians on their spears.
Real palythoas... (not people eaters, Zoanthus Gigantus, or any large Zoanthus sp.) like Palythoa Caesia as well as any of the Zoanthus species do not create this slime.
OK, i'm rambling now...
When i first read of the original posters symptoms i thought black mold. Rainy part of the country as well as 75 gallon tank. I can bet there is a lot of moisture in your home.
Sorry my 2 pennies turned into a couple dimes, but that is all i wanted to mention.
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