Poisonous Palythoa Polyps

[dfulton]

I'd like to add my $.02 in... You can just take it as that. Not much you can buy with two pennies now-a-days, so its not worth much. LOL

I run an online business based out of Honolulu. I won't go any further than that as i am not here to promote my business, but here as a hobbyist.

I deal with Hawaiian Zoas and Palys on a daily basis for quite a long time. I have never once had an experience as explained here in this thread.

I agree that palytoxin is nothing to joke about, but a lot of people are quick to call it out when all they have is some type of bacterial infection. As mentioned previously in this thread, only a few micro-grams are enough to kill a human. If you were in contact with palytoxin, you would not be online to type about it.

IMO, to say palytoxin or anything from the palythoa has/had become airborne in the form of fumes is very hard for me to believe.

The "Limu Make O Hana" or seaweed of death is describing the Hawaiian Button Polyp. (Protopalythoa) I have seen huge patches of these in the wild and they can be described as a moss like patch. This is how the Ancient Hawaiians described them.

(Cool page with the Ancient & Modern legends of palytoxin)

I have dealt with many of the button polyps first hand. There are many color morphs of the Hawaiian button polyps.

I am no scientist, but my theory is that the protopalythoas are the ones to be the most cautious with. Everyone should be very cautious when handling any type from the Zoanthidae family.

Protopalythoas create a slime coat like an acropora would when out of the water. This slime is what is believed to be used by the Hawaiians on their spears.

Real palythoas... (not people eaters, Zoanthus Gigantus, or any large Zoanthus sp.) like Palythoa Caesia as well as any of the Zoanthus species do not create this slime.

OK, i'm rambling now...

When i first read of the original posters symptoms i thought black mold. Rainy part of the country as well as 75 gallon tank. I can bet there is a lot of moisture in your home.

Sorry my 2 pennies turned into a couple dimes, but that is all i wanted to mention.

THANK YOU for your two cents and your pics! I would say these pictures are the closest I've seen to anything that was in our tank. Ours were a purplish mauve in color with a green center. My husband is currently feeling worse. (Body aches and chest pain) If you are wondering why it is taking so long to get him into the DR, that is a whole other story! We are not ruling out anything, so I appreciate your feedback!

 

[dfulton]

I do believe the problem lies within the tank and not our home, or the fishtank stand etc. Remember, nobody was sick until the DAY we brought home the live rock, etc. And the previous owner had the SAME symptoms.

Andy does want us to remove all the sand as quickly as possible, but in stages, as we are trying to keep everything alive. But here is something else I haven't mentioned.

Besides the invertabrates, this package we purchased on line from Craigslist, did include a mated pair of clownfish and one little blue damsel. After several weeks of having this thing up and running, we tested the water, and found it to be safe to begin adding our first fish. (At this point, we did not connect Dave and the family being sick along with the tank.)

We purchased a Coral Beauty Angel from Salt Water City. We put it in our tank, and for the first day, it appeared happy and fine. It minded it's own business.

By the next morning, things had changed. It looked like it had "itch" on it's head and fins, and began almost fighting our clownfish to the death. I called Salt Water City, and first of all they were shocked, as the demeanor of Coral Beauty's generally is not aggressive. (We previously owned a flame angel for 7-8 years, and it never bothered anything in the tank.) This Coral Beauty was acting crazy in the tank, and bit chunks out of one of the clown's dorsal fin, so Salt Water City told us to bring it back. Andy again thought that something in the water caused the fish to become sick, stressed, and act in a way that was outside it's character.

Again, the previous owner did do his required water changes, but had a poor pump system. (Only two small pump heads inside the tank, with little water flow, and bad lighting.)

 

[jag3534]

Ok, seriously, I feel like everyone on here is banging their head against the wall. Have you not heard what they are saying? It's probably not the palys, its something else. if it is the paly's, your husband should be going into cardiac arrest and not being able to breath and whatnot. That sounds like a pretty serious thing, not something to say "oh darn, but the tank is so nice" to. Maybe you should actually look into these other problems that experienced reefers have pointed out, and not just dismiss them out of hand, especially if your husband is still sick, a week after these polyps have been gone. I'm really not trying to be harsh or anything, I'm just really concerned that you're not taking this seriously enough, and not listening. Please just have an open mind. thanks.

 

[returnofsid]

Are we sure that it isn't just a coincidence and maybe your family caught a bug? Possibly even caught it from the guy you purchased the tank from, seeing as how he had the same symptoms? There are lots of flu type bugs going around right now, including the much over emphasized "swine flue."

I do agree that your symptoms are not at all in line with palytoxin poisoning. If it were palytoxin, you'd either be dead, or the symptoms wouldn't last long at all (as in a matter of hours).

 

[dfulton]

I would like to suggest to anyone wishing to share valuable thoughts, please take the time to read thru all the thread.

 

[mfinn]

Many of us have read the thread all the way through, and many of us that have experince with palythoa polyps still have doubts.

 

[returnofsid]

That's the thing, several of us have read through the entire thread. Several of us have also researched palytoxins. You can do the same with the links that have been provided. Not to make light of your situation in any way at all, but your symptoms and duration of illness doesn't at all match the type of toxins that any coral produces. Palytoxins attack the nervous system, your heart would stop beating, your lungs would stop expanding and contracting...etc. You wouldn't at all have the syptoms you're describing.

 

[mschrissygil]

If my family kept getting sick like that, especially my children, I would be at the hospital trying to figure out what is wrong...not the fish store or a reef board!

 

[mfinn]

Whatever the cause, I hope you find it, and that you and your family gets and stays healthy.



Zoanthids and palythoa polyps can be fun to keep, and they are some of the coolest corals we keep. But that's just my opinion.

 

[dfulton]

Dear Finn,
Thank you for your kindness. For those of you who have read thru the entire thread (first of all thank you for your patience) and have doubts that it is the palys we had, that's great to know. I am not disagreeing with you. We did have palys in our tank, and they look just like the one's the guy from Hawaii posted on the web. Now they are gone.

My husband has been in twice to see the doctor, and has an appointment this Monday the 22nd. The Dr isn't going to be a reef specialist like all of you, so I am gathering your thoughts, and they will be disclosed to the Dr.

To give a small re-cap, my husband has already had many tests, starting first with the Swine Flu, and lastly with every kind of Salmonella and also Vibrio. They "said" they tested for "everything". Obviously they haven't tested enough, as the only thing they found was that my husband's white blood cell count was high, and that's why he's going back in Monday for more testing.

So, if I remember right, we got rid of the Paly's and a section of the sand and added more water last Monday? That day we all started coughing and got sick that day, but my husband wore gloves, so he did NOT get a fever that time. (Every other time he stuck his bare arm in the tank he got a fever 100% of the time.)

Today is Saturday. With gloves, around noon, we removed another section of sand and added more water. But TODAY none of us felt a tightening in our chests that made us cough like before.

I am not trying to waste anybody's time here. Seriously, we ONLY felt sick when we stirred up things in the tank, which was something like once a week. I agree, mabey the palys were fine in there. Mabey it was that there was bad bacteria in the sand.

We DID take the previous guy's water, because we took his fish.
When you read this do you feel like you are hitting your head against a wall?
Wow, I'm sorry you feel that way. It takes time to gather information, and get in to see your Dr. I like to hear everyone's point of view.

If anyone is getting sick from reading all of this, I suggest you go see the beautiful pictures on the thread titled: African Blue Hornets. That was impressive.

As I mentioned earlier, my husband had a bow front salt water tank for about 20 years, with no drama whatsoever. He NEVER had a problem sticking his bare arm in the tank, and we had live rock. We sold it when we moved out of state for a couple years.

Only now are we diving into the reef world. I greatly appreciate anyone who is taking the time to read my many words, as the whole reason I am here is to seek answers from those who have experience.

Thank you for your thoughts

 

[gotfish]

Dfulton, I'd suggest you look at this scientifically instead of listening to the people at Saltwater City. A "finger" test is no better then a "SWAG". You have to look at the symptoms of this particular toxin i.e. death. You say this happened very shortly after getting the LR. I highly doubt the palys had long enough to do anything to the water. Seeing as how the symptoms your family has isn't death, I would rule out it being palys.

I didn't take a look at the pic you posted, but from your description it sounds like purple people eaters or red people eaters. A LOT of people on these forums have those. I have those. I've never had any problems with them.

You seemed to have gotten upset and posted that people should read the thread when posting. I'd suggest you do the same. EVERYONE is telling you it's not your palys yet you keep arguing that it is. If you think it is, for the rest of us, get your water tested to see what is in it.

I'd bet money this is most likely a mold/spore allergy and you might wanna start checking your house around the tank or in the stand.

 

[mschrissygil]

My husband has been in twice to see the doctor, and has an appointment this Monday the 22nd. The Dr isn't going to be a reef specialist like all of you, so I am gathering your thoughts, and they will be disclosed to the Dr.

You don't say anything about you or your son going to the Dr. though? I just think that with as serious as the symptoms are that you are describing and said that you have been through this sickness 5 times already, I would be at the ER and not waiting for a Dr. appointment.

 

[dfulton]

You don't say anything about you or your son going to the Dr. though? I just think that with as serious as the symptoms are that you are describing and said that you have been through this sickness 5 times already, I would be at the ER and not waiting for a Dr. appointment.

Me and my son are all better now. We both feel fine and no longer have any symptoms. Thank you for asking.

My husband's Dr did not feel any of us needed to go to the ER. They wanted Dave to get in LAST Monday to see his primary care physician, but something happened that THEY delayed our appointment until the 22nd. We wanted to get in sooner.

Remember me mentioning that my husband got some kind of a puncture wound? He guessed it could have been from a bristle worm, although we haven't found any in our tank. Could a sting from something be making him this sick?

You see, I will continue to believe that "something" in the tank made us ALL sick. But me and my son have gotten well. (The previous owner was contstantly sick until he got rid of the his tank. Now HE is well.)
It is only my husband that is sick now, although NOW no coughing and NOW no fever?
He HAS been tested for allergies by a professional allergist. He doesn't have any.

This is where we are at today. I think it would be wise for me to quit posting until we get FACTS from a specialist, but that will take time, as his primary care physician will refer him somewhere, I imagine.
Amy

 

[baseballkid5]

GET RID OF YOUR TANK! If you think its the tank! What is more Important your family getting sick numerous occasions?Or having a Fish tank?

Easy Answer.
Start Over

 

[returnofsid]

Glad to hear that some members of the family are feeling better!! IMO, this thread, and reading it, isn't at all a waste of time. I think what you're doing, trying to collect as much information about different possibilities, before going back to the Dr is a great idea. I truly hope you're able to get to the bottom of this as soon as possible!!

 

[dfulton]

I came across this website with a couple posts that I am pasting here that were interesting to me:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/woundf3.htm
Human Lung Disease? 11/26/07
Dear Dr. Fenner,
<Just Bob please... I have no doctorate>
Friday I spent several hours cleaning my sump, pumps, heaters etc. Most of this time was spent hunched over the garage sink with a lot of water vapor rising up into my face. That evening, my lungs felt inflamed. The next day (yesterday) a cough developed and then a high fever followed with all of the usual aches and pains associated. The reason I am writing is because there seems to be a very clear correlation between the cleaning of the sump and the rapid onset of this illness. I read the article posted on your site regarding aquariums and human health, and most of it seemed related to skin infections. Do you know of diseases of the lungs caused by the inhalation of bacteria commonly found in substrate? If so, I would greatly appreciate any references.
Best wishes to you all,
Brad in Basalt
<I do not... but do encourage you to seek out medical attention if you are concerned... I wish you good health. Bob Fenner>

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/woundfaqs2.htm
Palytoxin poisoning? 8.15.05
I've got a very important question here.
This morning 11 AM, I changed 30% of water in my 15 gallon reef tank. I also rearranged the live rocks.
But I forgot that I have a wound on my finger. But it was already dry, a scab. I have a Zoanthid colony (cats eye polyp) in my tank and I also moved it with my hands and been in contact with it for about 5 minutes, also removing some of the polyps that had been detached from the colony. I worked in the tank for about 20 minutes so the dry wound became soft again because of being soaked by the sea water.
And only about 10 min.s ago I was reading about the palytoxins that Zoanthid have. I'm really very concerned about this. Have I been poisoned?
I'm not really feeling anything unusual up to now and its been 12 hrs since I've had contact with the polyps. Please advise. I'm really scared.
<no worries my friend... as someone who has been poisoned... sigh (my stupidity), no less than three times, I can assure you that you'd know it by now. The sensation is almost instantaneous... starting with a metallic taste in the mouth. in severe cases/reactions, you will have difficulty breathing. A search of the big message boards will reveal other such stories.>
I didn't know about the potential dangers of Zoanthids.
I did some research about their care but haven't read about their toxicity.
<Some species are fatally toxic. But you'd be amazed how many other organisms in your tank are also quite noxious to taste, touch, etc: sponges, tunicates, many snails, etc. The lesson here is to please(!) wear latex gloves - for your safety and for your corals safe(r) keeping. Anthony>

 

[dfulton]

So the above website did not have an answer for the gentleman experiencing matching symptoms to ours, but it is interesting to find someone else out there who has had this problem.

I will say, before speaking with Andy, I spent a good hour talking on the phone with Trev Dakan, the owner/ Marine Biologist of Salt Water City. As he listened to my story, he said a couple times in his life he has experienced getting sick with a fever after cleaning out "bad tanks". He just racked it up to coincodence, and figured he just got the "flu" each time..... Mabey he did? But it seems strange that we are finding others that have simular situations that parallels our own. Trev was very pleasant to speak with, and ended the converstation referring me to Andy, as he felt he would have more knowledge in this deparment, being that he is a scientist. I am doing extensive research online to try to find something to share with our DR.

By the way, since removing the polyps and sand, and completing our third water change as of this last Saturday, none of us in our family had reactions. No coughing in the house. The sand we have siphoned out of our tank is currently sitting in a bucket in our garage until we dispose of it. But, interestingly enough, anyone wishing to stick there head in the bucket and breath in WILL find themselves coughing....

 

[dfulton]

CHECK OUT THIS WEBSITE:
http://www.online.karger.com/Produk...e=249208&ProduktNr=224332&filename=218190.pdf

Cellular Physiology and Biochemistry
PRODUCTION OF FUNCTINALLY ACTIVE PALYTOXIN-LIKE COMPOUNDS BY MEDITERRANEAN OSTREOPSIS cf. SIANMENSIS

See page two of this report:
"Palytoxin-like compounds also cause human sufferings because of the exposure to the marine aerosols, with symptoms that include fever associated to serious respiratory disturbs, such as bronchoconstriction, mild dyspnea, wheezes, and in some cases conjunctivitis.

Page one of this paper says:
"Palytoxin is one of the largest and highly potent marine toxins first isolated from zooanthids of the genus Palythoa. It has been also found in sea anemones, polychaete worms, crabs and herbivorous fishes. However, algae from the genus Ostreopsis have been proposed as the possible biogenetic origin of this toxin as well as some potent analogues, e.g. ostreocin-D.

Here is another interesting website:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/293/21/2599-b
Our findings suggest an association between this phenomenon and concomitant symptoms in people exposed to marine aerosols.Some people described a metallic taste of the water.
Twenty-eight persons (9 men, 18 women, and 1 child; mean age, 38.6 y; range, 10-68 y) were identified with symptoms occurring during recreational or working activities on the beach (Table). The most common symptom was copious watery rhinorrhea, but dry or mildly productive cough, fever (temperature to 38°C), and bronchoconstriction with mild dyspnea and wheezes on chest auscultation were also observed. Conjunctivitis was also observed in 3 persons. There was no apparent relationship between symptoms and exposure duration or activities. No patients required hospitalization. Some symptoms ceased within a few hours after discontinuation of exposure, while cough, fever, dyspnea, and wheezing lasted up to 24 hours in some cases.

 

[DonW]

Although I think research is a good thing self diagnosis is not. Letting a doc know you may have come in contact with something toxic is always helpful and can speed the diagnostic process. A fish store giving medical advice and performing swag method testing is irresponsible and could have cost someone their life. Being the son of a very prominant MD and scientist I can without doubt say no doc in their right mind would tell you anything more than go to the ER if there was a chance in he?? Of this being palytoxin poisening. However I did inquire about this subject and of course got the typical answer "go to the ER" my interpretation of the technobable is that the test is very straight forward along with the treatment. I guess my point is that all the internet diagnosis is just enough information to dangerous.

Don

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Well put Don.

If indeed the problem came from the tank, why is it still in your house?
And if still in the house, why have the symptoms alleviated?

This is not theoretical science, it is chemistry and biology.
This discussion should be about what the Drs' tests confirmed, not what some local fish salesman opined...