politicaly correct

[MikeS]

now i did agree with ecobalance on the live rock live sand debate and obviously mike s said he was told that 2 decades ago so that pretty much goes your argument on a new way (if any one eles read that thread before being deleted)

Well, back then, we really didn't have access to live rock (especially in Wyoming), what we would typically do when setting up a new tank is to take several gallons of water, a used filter pad or two, and a few cups of crushed coral (which is what we used in my area back then almost exclusively as a substrate) from an existing mature tank and add them to the new tank. Then we would add a nutrient source and track the ammonia and nitrite spikes with tests. When both levels were at zero and nitrate was on the rise, we considered the tank "broke in" and ready for the first livestock addition. So really, this is fundamentally no different than adding LR and LS...you get the same results...nothing new or revolutionary about it

i to thought that alot of people not this board but people in my local communtiy are stuck in ideas that are arcaic i am open to any suggestion of new or old methods

I'm of the opinion that just because an idea has been around awhile or is considered "old school", that doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Sure, there are some methods and ideas that are no longer practiced in modern marine tank keeping...but out of the ones that have stuck around, there is usually a good reason...they work, and have been tried and true for a long period of time. I see a lot of people that try to challange old ideas and practices...which is a good thing, it helps the hobby advance and evolve...but to unilaterally dismiss old ideas and practices as a matter of course just doesn't make much sense to me. I'm always open to new ideas, and if somebody can prove to me that an old idea or practice I employ is no longer a good idea, I'm all ears.

MikeS

 

[seahawkone]

GIVE ME A BREAK
yOU talk about ather people blowing there on horn and here you are playing a trombone solo.
Seahawkone

 

[Mr.Firemouth]

If it is a fact that Ecobalance maintains tanks for profit, than this post really disturbs me.
Testing water parameters IS the ONLY way to maintain stability in any system! To dismiss the importance of daily/weekly testing of various water parameters is reckless, to say the least.

Stability is the key to long term success in reef tanks. Maintaining levels of Calcium/Alkalinity/Magnesium can not be done by water changes alone! For one, salt mixes vary in these concentrations from batch to batch and each mix we make is different than the last! For two, our tank inhabitants consume these elements at different speeds! So, without testing as Curt recommended, how then does anyone, new or veteran, maintain the proper levels?

The thumbnail pics that are included in the thread pale in comparison to any Tank of the Month! There is a difference between thriving and surviving! Take any reef tank, add the proper light, circulation, chemical filtration, proper water parameters, and the tank will thrive. Remove any one of the items and the tank will suffer. Tracking everything from the lights to the water params with logs as Curt referred to will help with the long term stability. Reeftanks evolve daily as growth of organisms changes day to day.

A perfect example of a neglected test is TDS of source water. How many people own a TDS meter? How many people test their source water? How many people only use RO water? TDS should test Zero ppm. 2ppm is a maximum. Over that and you are combating nuisance algae or worse. But who tests?

My point is it is not about selling dozens of things for profit to newbies but to educate yourself about your individual system by knowing the results of the water parameters and maintaining stability.

Finally, in the SPS arena, this is even more important. SPS corals have little tolerance for fluctuating water parameters or elevated nutrient levels.

Posts like this are very frustrating to those of us that are trying to help people succeed and stay in the hobby.
Rich

 

[ecobalance]

wow did i miss a turn some where

My only intention was to talk about a way[utilizing live sand] which in my oppinon is prety new to the hobie to elimanate the nitrogen cycle,and the micro-biology that goes with it.combined with cured live rock,circulation,skimming,and light this would allow to add fish [any fish] instantly,and reduce the varibles accociated with such cycle.To walk a newby through this first set up was to help them acchieve success and the confidence that goes with it.The not testing was only to take away the natural human tendancy to fix things that are fine.This was never suggested as a never never thing,but only till that aquarium matures on it's own un touched.The desire to know how and why would come naturaly as needed ,and in a learn as you go approach.Some how it got turned around to be a thread that is proffit based,or one that is aimed at screwing people up ,to a attempt at keeping them stupid so that they would be lost without me.I still don't see the merit of any of these replys .Testing is definatly very important ,there is no dought about that ,but useless if done by someone who doesn't have a clue what they mean.Any aquarium that is coached as far as ingredents goes for a newby will almost always evolve perfectly if left alone for those first few crutial months with exception to addition of life.This time will allow the newby time to learn about such parameters with a true to life modle at their disposal[bad word]but you know what i mean.I now see that this site and its many great members,along with the super hero's who are here to protect them from harm is not ready for such people as my self who believe in the notion that anything is posible and there's no reason to fear your aquarium,and it can be acomplished without any knowledge of how it works,and learned as you go with little to no experance in biology.This will definatly be my last post.The safe,tried ,true,G rating atmosphere is getting a little to stuffy.I'm sure aquariums without restrictions or guidelines are not in the too far future. they are common place in my world. It's been real.

 

[DonW]

Live sand is not new by any means. I dont know where in the world you came up with this. It been around probably as long as the hobby itself. The denitrifacation process has been well documented and is well understood by most of us. You seem to think you discovered something new.

Don

 

[Herefishyfishy]

I now see that this site and its many great members,along with the super hero's who are here to protect them from harm is not ready for such people as my self who believe in the notion that anything is posible and there's no reason to fear your aquarium,and it can be acomplished without any knowledge of how it works,and learned as you go with little to no experance in biology.This will definatly be my last post.The safe,tried ,true,G rating atmosphere is getting a little to stuffy...

Eco, I have no history with you nor any preconceived ideas about who you are or what is important to you nor why. My only issue was your promoting a less knowledge is better approach. Frankly, I personally don't really understand what else out of the norm you are promoting yet for some reason you see yourself as on the cutting edge and this world isn't ready for you????

No reason to take your glove and go home because there was a lack of agreement. If you have a simple point, make it. Short and sweet.

Here as an example, I will make a point that is 100% opinion based: Knowledge equals understanding equals increased success.

You can agree or disagree and I will listen or POLITELY debate THE POINT.

What is your point other than feel that Reef Frontiers isn't ready for "new ideas"

Mike, an old time reefer who has seen it all and is still learning each and every day.

 

[logiktest]

Ecobalance,

Come on! Don't be a sore looser! There is nothing wrong with some healthy debate. I agree with some of the idea's you present. I also dissagree with some of your idea's. thats life. It's the same as when I talk to friends about tuning up a car-people have thier idea's, and I have mine-we argue. Through consensus and hard data, we will all become far wiser than if we never spoke up at all. I dont think any one is going to stop any one else from doing what they do.

 

[logiktest]

Oh, Mike you said the same thing I wanted to, while I was still busy typing so... well said!

 

[Damsel13]

I am just wondering why so many have such bad spelling and grammar on a public website? I am by no means a well educated English teacher however from time to time I wonder if speed may be the reason for the grammatical and spelling errors? Or maybe like me their keyboard sticks. Maybe it is just slang. However sometimes I find it difficult to take someone who does not know the difference between their and there hard to trust with tank issues. Many of these I speak of are way smarter than I am but still it makes me wonder...
I hope this makes sense to someone.

 

[morgan]

someone such as my self am not good with gramma but i cant be bothered to put , and . everywhere i try not to make to many mistakes but if i cant spell a word then i will just try you might not be good at englsih but maybe good with maths

 

[Krish]

I am just wondering why so many have such bad spelling and grammar on a public website? I am by no means a well educated English teacher however from time to time I wonder if speed may be the reason for the grammatical and spelling errors?

Debbie...Alot of members here don't have the English Language as a first language which is why you will see spelling mistakes and bad grammer sometimes.

 

[krisfal]

ecobalance,

A nice friendly debate would probably have been lots of fun, I do not believe anybody here is afraid of new ideas. In fact I felt some of what you were trying to say is probably accurate. As a newby I had a tank set up for me and learned as I went. On my second tank I bought live rock from a fellow reefer on RF and brought it home in buckets with water and my tank really had no cycle. I tested yet never saw ammonia or nitrites and only negligible nitrates. I likely could have began stocking the tank in just a few days. There are many approaches to this hobby.

The problem has been that on every post you have made you include many insulting remarks. These remarks are very blatant and for me shocking. Why do you feel the need to do that? When I would read your post they made me angry, not because of what you were saying about reefing but rather the insults you were throwing around. We are all here for the same reasons: to learn and share our experiences. When you start out by insulting people they will always become defensive. When they are defensive they are not going to hear what you are saying.

 

[Damsel13]

Well put Kris. I agree I am trying to tag along on this one but eco some of your remarks make me skip over your posts and just read the responses.

 

[plack]

"I am just wondering why so many have such bad spelling and grammar on a public website? "

This would include me! I leave spaces because it makes it easier to read. My writting skills are not that great.I would personally love to see the spell checker re-installed in the quick reply window !!

Wow what a long thread about how to help others?

Ecobalance You seemed to start off stating what irritates you about how others respond or how they help others...I am sorry you needed to Vent.But we all do from time to time.

I think this is getting pointless !!



Paul

 

[Scooterman]

Actually Eco has provided no new methods of thinking but has provided much unexplained Ideas & continually contradicted himself many times over. The Ideas of setting up & instant tank can be done & has been many times but this comes from experienced people who actually understand why & how it can be done. It isn't something you start out teaching newcomers; also here at RF we have some of the brightest people here that stay up to date with the latest technologies, equipment, chemicals, salts & basically everything needed. We do change our methods through time & things can happen faster but there are many reasons through modern advances, techniques, etc to help with these processes. Rather than blurt out every new trick first, we tend to spend time to make sure they work or see through time & experience if these are better before we just throw out information to newcomers or others. This site is here to share, grow & advance everyone, new & experienced, we aren't in the dark ages but rather came a very long way as compared ten/twenty years ago. Example, LR through better faster shipping, makes it get to the end users so much quicker now, It is cheaper through growth & competition, & the demand it growing daily for everything related to this hobby. Look at lighting, we now have electronic ballast that light up any MH, T5's were discussed & tried greatly & still learning, skimming has gone through the roof, new improvements daily, Yes some of this has been around a good bit longer & it takes time to get here & get put to the test as our European friends tend to be ahead in some aspects but through this we still growing & learning & changing but you have to do it within reason, & @ pace, understanding how these shortcuts work & why we can get away with it like that. We at this site do our best to provide known & tried information, we try to help explain daily to the newcomers & help them, and we go out of our way to get them the best information possible. I don't see us as blind to new technology & ways but rather cautious for all of us, until we know it is sound information for all of us to use. If you go back 5 years & see some of the things we discussed & then compare to now, you will see a great change in some cases, I know for one, I have posted things then that now I feel has changed greatly, for the better so that sometimes can be misleading unless you know why would someone change their views on certain subjects or ideas.
I know Curtswearing has recently updated all of our resources which continually needs updating, changing or adding to it, which in turns is "A resource" for all of Us to use & gain from it. Boomer, heck he is so far up to date / ahead he is like a living encyclopedia full of experience continually learning, he eats this stuff up! Lee Birch, take a look at his background of marine fish, & take a look at what he has done for RF in such a short time! How about Anthony, WOW you got coral & need information, this is the dictionary of coral & help with caring for them! LOL, then look at out staff, newcomers welcomed by Krish, he has the patients to repeatedly help answer the same questions over & over daily & does it with a smile. MikeS, want to talk sand, this guy can make your ear curl LOL! No offense Mike Nikki, has provided so much help & great discussions, If she doesn't have your answers then she knows where to get it, Nick is into a little of everything, he’ll also straighten you out If your not playing rightJ LOL, Kevin Po, another great resource for things tried & true, coral, lighting you name it he has the proof, look at his corals, man I know I'm missing some so forgive me, & last Chuck & Mojo put this site together for everyone to learn, help & enjoy, to give them the best possible chance of being successful the first time around, not always the case I know but we give it our darnest to get it right, yes sometimes one of us may insert foot in mouth, we all have our moments but for the most part we give freely to help those who want it, we do it day in & day out, we strive to be the best & still have fun, & within reason.

Deb, check my spelling & for run on’s!!

PS! BTW we provide information through our own experiences, knowledge but by no means is this the only way of doing things & anyone is free to do what or how they want, that is the beauty of this, you can do it any way you want, we just try to offer what we know will help or work through proved practices.