Potassium and Corals

[Boomer]

Many Zeo guys, as I have said, end up with low K+, as the zeo rock is sucking it out not the bacteria. Some have made changes to the zeo rock where the K+ is more normal and not depleted. K+ kits are NOT all that reliable and who knows that will all that "crap" ( Zeo/Vodka / Vinegar / Italian Blue / C-Dose systems), there is not some interference with the kit. What rolls corals play in K+ for "tissue" or hard Skeleton, with such depletion losses, they would have to be grossly loaded with K+and I do not buy that. Even IF the bacteria had it where did it all go ? The bacteria sucking it out is a guess with no evidence. There is not some Black Hole all that K+ is going. Coral skeletons have about as much K+ in their skeletons as Titanium & Boron and 100's of times more Sr++ than those 3 combined. This K+ thing is really for "the guy in the mirror" All we need to do is try to keep it at normal levels.

Somebody asked about the effects of K+ over dose. K+ competes with Ca++ and N. So, it would lower their up take.

 

[Frankie]

Maybe there is a way to test zeolites, fresh and used, to determine whether they are actually the culprit. I can get some people to send me there used stones since I am not currently practicing. I have new ones from KZ.
How would I go about doing this boomer? crush and dissolve the stones? I am guessing it would be difficult to test because the zeolites are a mixture of different types from different places? I am willing to mess around a bit with this idea if you think I can do it accurately in my state of the art garage based facility?

 

[mojoreef]

I dont know if it would be worth it Frank. I think that even under optimal settings it would be a minor thing. See even if you make some pretty big assumtions and say that its taken up by bacteria, but then in the same breathe say that one has to skim heavy then basically you are enriching just to flush down the tolet??

Again I havent really looked at what the current zeo state is, but one thing I like about the concept is that it is making the user be very attentive, and that alone can have a positive result. I just think one could have similar results with much less expensive methods?? and methods that are not trying to warp the coral metaphysical balance?? if that makes and sence??

Mojo

 

[Frankie]

Yep, I understand what your talking about but back up to the toilet thing, the point is yes, to enrich. but to keep that moving you need to refresh it within a confined environment. On the open reef you have a constant washing of an ideal nutrient concentration. In our tanks this can build up and become a negative as we have all found out. Skimming and replenishing is our only choice. That is until someone comes up with a better plan

The over all expense of zeo it negligible compared to most current methods today. The added energy consumption to run a refugium alone would cost more then the suggested zeovit supplements monthly.


If one was to run a system with just the skimmer and husbandry of a zeovit reefer there tanks would not be far from the same. The weekly water change suggestion is a major contributor to the zeovit success. And would benefit any system.
So your spot on that most successful zeovit users success comes from the husbandry in most of it. The supplements and use of zeolites are added benefits for the users visual pleasures.

 

[mojoreef]

Well thats to to answer, again I have not looked at the zeo system in a while. From what it was (stripping the water to reduce zoo count) lost me right at that point, so unless that has changed I personally wouldnt touch it. But again I am not sure what they have gone to now.

On the enrichment of bacteria. The bacterial population in anything is limited by its food source. As the food source deminished so does the population, this is what new reefers see when they are first setting up a tank (it cycles, then bacteria pop. grows, then it dies, then algae takes its place, then it dies and bacteria comes in once again) this process contiues until the tank finally stablizes.

When you add an additive or bacteria dose your going to get an increase in the bacteria pop. but its not like their go to be free swiming and thus be available to corals to ingest through slime netting. If one thought about it, you could say way not just add additives to the food you feed your fish??? that would make them much more healthy and they are pretty good at broadcast crapping over everything??

Anyway I know we have a couple of users of this method on RF now I think what would be a cool idea would be to have a thread where we could all see the effects of various things on the tank. Not a thread to debate it, but perhaps to log it?? Say like you have your tank with 5 particular corals (sps) all of different colors. You take pictures of the corals once every two weeks and post them. then in the mean time you log in the thread all the processes you do day to day or week to week?? I think that would give a dead on look for everyone, including you folks on what gets done and the effects it seems to be having on the corals??


ANyway something to think about?


Mojo

 

[Frankie]

I think it is an excellent idea Mike! Soon my build will be done and I will be starting it off with the 14 day zeovit cycle process. Doing it from from the beginning and not on an existing system will help us eliminate a lot of the issues that come with old tank syndrome.
Most zeovit systems today are ones that were previously traditional systems that built up to many nutrients in the rock and have turned to probiotics to cure there problems.(weather they realize it is the rock or not is a whole other topic in itself!) Mostly high levels of P04 is the leading cause for people becoming interested in probiotics.

I have been doing some reading on coral tissue and how polyps provided nutrients to there surrounding colony. I will want to talk more about this and what role K+ has in this thread.
Let's talk about a different type of stony coral, that really isn't a stony coral- The Fire Coral. Milleporina within the class of Hydrozoa rather then other stony coral that are in the class of Anthozoa.
This coral has a better skeleton and tissue mass to study due to the smooth skeleton structure. ( I wish I has some water running so I could study this coral now)
There is a lot of information on this coral available so I will report back my readings soon in the coming week.
Any information pertaining to this coral please post the links here.

 

[Boomer]

Frank

Maybe there is a way to test zeolites

This K+ thing with zeo's is not an opinion but fact. Zeolites are ion exchangers and in seawater about the first thing they do is exchange for a K+ ion. Go to RC and look up me and the key word Clinoptilolite or me and Zeolites and hope it is not to deep for you In Dick & Jane terms a Zeolite is a water softer, a DI resin or Kitty Litter. There are 100's of Zeolites natural and man-made. What I have tried to tell people for such K+ depletion with Zeolites, is to find a Clino-based Zeo that does not have an affinity for K+. Bacteria love the surface of Zeo's , which has NOTING to do with them doing any exchange. Those that say otherwise or believe in the Zeovit hoop-de-lah are talking gibberish nonsense. You will get the same effect with SeaChem Labs De-Nitrate, which is not even a zeolite but an inert porous rock that bacteria like.



Mojo

When you add an additive or bacteria dose your going to get an increase in the bacteria pop.

This means about nothing in regards to K+. If there is a real depletion in K+, and not from the Zeo, it has to go somewhere and be somewhere and nobody know where it is going. And skimmers are not doing it, as Skimmates have been chemically assayed by Ken. Skimmer are not very efficient at moving much. GAC will beat the crap out of any skimmer, which I have claimed for years and proven by Ken Skimmers are MOSTLY marketing gibberish. An air-stone skimmer is more efficient that almost all Hi-tech skimmers, with measured data to back it up. Ozone also works better in air-atone skimmers, due to the height of the column, a basic law in chemical engineering and mass-transfer is column height.


What you have missed here Mojo is K+, according to some, is highly depleted. From claimed measurements it would be more than Sr+ or Mg++ depletion. Maybe it is some how it is getting tied up in all those organics and settling out. We all are just guessing where it is going. Corals and bacteria are just not going to use that much. That much has no function.

. Not a thread to debate it, but perhaps to log it?? Say like you have your tank with 5 particular corals (sps) all of different colors. You take pictures of the corals once every two weeks and post them.

This has been kinda been done like that post on this thread by me. There is really not much doubt or argument if you add x, y or z,the coral turns w color.



Frankie

I will want to talk more about this and what role K+ has in this thread.

There is NO evidnece on this. The only thing it has shown to do is make the coral more colored. It is not a coral need thing it is a reefer I want this color thing. Analogy: You want a suntan and Mojo does not want a sum tan, Mojo says it is bad for the skin. or You do not drink beer, as it makes you fat but Mojo drinks beer and it makes him fat. Mojo does not need the beer but likes to be fat (not that he is or why he drinks beer) So, who is going to live longer the beer drinker or the non-beer drinker ???

 

[mojoreef]

What you have missed here Mojo is K+, according to some, is highly depleted. From claimed measurements it would be more than Sr+ or Mg++ depletion. Maybe it is some how it is getting tied up in all those organics and settling out. We all are just guessing where it is going. Corals and bacteria are just not going to use that much. That much has no function.

I was just making a reference to any of the additives really not so much on just the K+. Although I can see the bacteria and similar taking up an amount, but I have seen no data on how much is being depleted.

This has been kinda been done like that post on this thread by me. There is really not much doubt or argument if you add x, y or z,the coral turns w color.

I would really like to see a kind of visual on it. It would allow me to look at other things going on with the coral at the same time.

Mojo does not need the beer but likes to be fat

Oh yea now we go straight into the Mojo is a fat beer drinker thing hey? And a Merry Chriatmas to you to their buddy!!!!


Mojo

 

[Frankie]

How did I get sucked into this!?:lol:

Thanks for the references boomer. I'll do some homework and hopefully understand a little bit.

I find it funny that two of the smartest reefer here on RF can't spell for beans btw

Here's a good link for both of you ieSpell - Download

 

[Boomer]

Do you, Frankie, live in glass house

contributer

And what book did you get that out of It is contributor

I have not misspelled one word on this thread


Mojo

That was not a good come back on the beer thing

 

[mojoreef]

Frankie my fingers and my brain operate on two different cycles. My brain operates at a nice normal speed, my fat fingers however are on their own!! lol

Boomer I am not done with you just yet!! heheh

 

[Boomer]

For me it is the keyboard. The letters keep moving around