Quite possibly a dumb Live Rock question

[Elmo18]

Ok, something's been bothering me....regarding live rock. I have seen several people order live rock, be it pukani, etc etc live rock from say Walt Smith, Inc.

So the rock comes, they take it out of the box, stare in amazement at their wonderful new 'rocks'. Now the scrubbing and curing process begins. Now a lot of people do this with tightly closed lids and just powerhead, and possibly heater/no heater. Basically when you do that, from what my mind would think, is that you're not letting light go through so algae blooms will not occur on the rocks. However, from my thinking, this would basically cook the rock, kill everything on it, in it, except maybe bacteria (?!? or no?).

Now this is what is bothering me. People buy live rock, only to kill it in their 'tubs', 'garbage bins', etc, witih nothing left alive on it. Just from observations, I want to take Chuck's new rock for instance (nothin on ya Chuck, just wanted some things clarified). It is pure white, and by white, i mean its about as clean as newly laid tiles, nothing on it. Now when it came in (first arrival of the rocks), I'm guessing it had coralline cover and this is judging by the new rocks that James (Illusion) has just received recently. So my point I guess, which does or may not make sense (?!?!), is that if we're basically buying rock, killing it, turning it white, wouldn't this be the same as buying already dead rock, soaking it again in saltwater/pumps/heater, and seed with some 'old water' from the parent tank?

What is the difference between the live rock we buy, that we kill anyway while curing (if you close lids, powerhead, etc), than the already dead stuff. I'm sorry for the rant, it has just been bothering me all day.

- Ilham

 

[Ed Hahn]

Ilham,
I think people are concerned with introducing a bad algae, or preventing unwanted pest(thinking unwanted coral or animal eating invertebrates) into their tanks. I believe people want to have the cleanest environment for new corals. I hear people talking about killing animals in their system and breaking down the ecosystem. Call me a fool, I still believe maybe there are hidden treasures in new rock. I think I believe the same thing you do..

Rut Ro.. :shock: .I feel another debate coming on...

 

[wrightme43]

I like the curing with low light in a tank with a skimmer and a heater. Or curing in a open brute trash can with at least a heater. I subscribe to the I dont wanna kill all my stuff off idea as well. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Wolfesbane]

Yep, I cure in a low light tank with skimmer and heater as well. I also don't scrub unless there's something that's obviously dead and needs to be removed.

~ Steve

 

[jlehigh]

It's not a dumb question at all.

Yes, "cooking" kills allot of the life on live rock, however it doesn't kill everything. There will still be enough life in the rock to re-grow corraline and who knows what else. From my perspective it's simply a matter of weighing the benefits of decimating all undesirable algae and pests versus having more diverse life.

My preference is to manage the algae and pests on the backend versus cooking up-front, but as you know some people have extremly difficult struggles with green algaes. I also think the second you add a coral on LR plugs, rubble and overgrown rocks you introduce the risk anyway.

Sponges, stomella snails, chitons, worms, pods, and other "hitchhikers" were what engaged me so deeply in the hobby to begin with.

 

[MtnDewMan]

I also don't think it is a dumb question and no offense taken

The reason behind what I did was that I had just been experiencing some major issues in my tank with respect to lots of unwanted things growing out of my live rock. So I basically wanted to start from a clean slate. Introduce as little as possible except for the bacteria that breaks down the ammonia, nitrates and nitrites.

I agree there is some incredible life in live rock and I for one normally wouldn't want to miss out on it, but in this recent case, I did not want to take any chances either.

For what it's worth, that piece of live rock that you got from me (the Pukani) was in a box in my garage for over 5 weeks, not in any water. The rock in my tank was extremely steril to say the least. So white that it had some good reflection action going on ... Yes it did have much more growth on it when I received it. And it stunk to HIGH heaven. I wanted to scrub it well to get rid of things that were already dead. In order to maintain some of the color I don't think uncovering a trash can would have been sufficient. It would likely need a true light source on top and I didn't have the facility for that activity. So, the trash can lid went on, the trash can temp went up, and the rock turned white

 

[NaH2O]

Ilham - I really don't see it the same as purchasing dead rock. Dead rock can contain nutrients from organisms that died inside the rock as it dried, or depending on where it was stored (not sure where the rock is before it gets dried up), it could be subjected to nutrient rich water. Look at all the life that survived my rock. It was in the tank.....but no lighting....ammonia off the charts.....a skimmer that broke part way thru the cure process. I never introduced cured live rock to "seed"...I only had what I had. I have a crazy amount of pods, shrimp, worms, snails, sponges, aiptasia, coralline, and went thru/going thru my share of algae blooms. I think treating uncured rock this way is important to allow any die off present/organics to be shed and ready for new colonization. I think there is plenty of diversity that survives the "darkness". A lot of these little critters have adapted to some extreme situations....tide goes out, so you have to be exposed to intense sunlight, hypersalinity pools, etc. When do you see pods come out? I see them at night...in the dark of my tank - gazillions of them. I believe Adelaide from Oceanpods posted about the 'pods ability to withstand UV for survival. Found the quote:

I'm not sure if all pods passing through a UV light will be done in. They actually have very good defenses to UV radiation because they end up in very exposed areas when their tide pools dry up. They have the stamina to crawl across what would be miles to a human being to get to a new pool of water. It has been demonstrated in arctic pods (think of how red Cyclopeeze is) that they can change coloration to combat the oxidation effects of UV radiation. I have recently helped out in a marine lab near my place in Santa Cruz and I placed a filter on the outflow of water which was passed through 2 sand bed filters, 3 canister filters in size ranges from 100 microns to 5 microns, and UV filter - guess what - there were still copepods coming through. We figured there was a leak in the canister filters, and the UV bulb was replaced, I believe to increase the chances of removing any remaining pods. These guys are tough!

OK - sensing I'm going off on a tangent here (yeah yeah...it's late for me). Chuck was fortunate enough for hot days and the water temperature was VERY high in his curing bins....I wish that was the case with mine...I don't think I would have the algae problems. Believe me....there are plenty of survivors after all this. The only way I see to completely decimate all life in liverock is by literally boiling the rock in a pot for a few hours (of course drying it out does, too....but doesn't help the rock to shed like the boiling does). My rock had a ton of coloration when I opened the box. Even if I did everything I could to try and save that life....I don't know that it would have lived. Is my tank lighting enough to support that gorgeous orangish-pink coralline all over the fresh uncured rock? probably not - that would probably lose its coloration after some time in the tank. This question was not a dumb one at all.....I feel it all really boils down to what you want out of your rock.

 

[Ed Hahn]

Ilham - I really don't see it the same as purchasing dead rock. Dead rock can contain nutrients from organisms that died inside the rock as it dried, or depending on where it was stored (not sure where the rock is before it gets dried up), it could be subjected to nutrient rich water. Look at all the life that survived my rock. It was in the tank.....but no lighting....ammonia off the charts.....a skimmer that broke part way thru the cure process. I never introduced cured live rock to "seed"...I only had what I had. I have a crazy amount of pods, shrimp, worms, snails, sponges, aiptasia, coralline, and went thru/going thru my share of algae blooms. I think treating uncured rock this way is important to allow any die off present/organics to be shed and ready for new colonization. I think there is plenty of diversity that survives the "darkness". A lot of these little critters have adapted to some extreme situations....tide goes out, so you have to be exposed to intense sunlight, hypersalinity pools, etc. When do you see pods come out? I see them at night...in the dark of my tank - gazillions of them. I believe Adelaide from Oceanpods posted about the 'pods ability to withstand UV for survival. Found the quote:

"Originally Posted by ladygator:
I'm not sure if all pods passing through a UV light will be done in. They actually have very good defenses to UV radiation because they end up in very exposed areas when their tide pools dry up. They have the stamina to crawl across what would be miles to a human being to get to a new pool of water. It has been demonstrated in arctic pods (think of how red Cyclopeeze is) that they can change coloration to combat the oxidation effects of UV radiation. I have recently helped out in a marine lab near my place in Santa Cruz and I placed a filter on the outflow of water which was passed through 2 sand bed filters, 3 canister filters in size ranges from 100 microns to 5 microns, and UV filter - guess what - there were still copepods coming through. We figured there was a leak in the canister filters, and the UV bulb was replaced, I believe to increase the chances of removing any remaining pods. These guys are tough!"

OK - sensing I'm going off on a tangent here (yeah yeah...it's late for me). Chuck was fortunate enough for hot days and the water temperature was VERY high in his curing bins....I wish that was the case with mine...I don't think I would have the algae problems. Believe me....there are plenty of survivors after all this. The only way I see to completely decimate all life in liverock is by literally boiling the rock in a pot for a few hours (of course drying it out does, too....but doesn't help the rock to shed like the boiling does). My rock had a ton of coloration when I opened the box. Even if I did everything I could to try and save that life....I don't know that it would have lived. Is my tank lighting enough to support that gorgeous orangish-pink coralline all over the fresh uncured rock? probably not - that would probably lose its coloration after some time in the tank. This question was not a dumb one at all.....I feel it all really boils down to what you want out of your rock.

going to Kid Nap that Pod woman and bring her to Tri-Cities...Shes is too smart..

 

[mojoreef]

Good thread ELmo!!

Myself I perfer to cure the LR in a dark ontainer with just heat and some water flow. When LR is harvested it sits dry for a period of time, with the occasional spash of water before it is sent state side. Most of the bacteria, pods, micro organisms will surviv as they create biofilms to block the air from infaltrating thier holes or enviroments. This process also works for worms and some crabs and stuff.
Now most sponges and some of the algae that live on the surface of the rock are toast as soon as it comes out of the water. For them its just a matter of waiting for them to rot off and dissenagrate, personally I just take a brush to them and get rid of them quickly rather then wait for them to disappear. Regardless o how you cure your rock your going to get a huge amount of die off and thus nutrients, if you allow light to enter the equation then you are going to skew the enviroment to the liking of algae to consume the nutrients, with no light you are going to skew it to bacteria. Personally I perfer the bacteria route.
As per corralline it will survive fairly well out of water and is easy to seed back in. Also the pukani is a deeper rock and doesnt really come with a ton of corraline to start with, but has more then its share of sponges.


Mike

 

[class clown]

good thread- I learned a lot and was wondering the same darn thing Elmo

 

[prbhasson]

I agree about cleaning the dead stuff off and curing in a vat under low light with heat and skimming. I also understand wanting to get rid of the bad pests. On a recent journey of mine I had a larger piece of live rock with 2 aiptaisia on it. I immedeatly took it and literaly boiled it on the stove for 1 hour. then cured it with my other rock. Morale of this is that two months after doing this those 2 pesty aiptasia are in my main tank on that same rock. Not everything dies off when cleaned.....

 

[MCary]

Man what a dumb question! Just kidding.

I got into a heated debate once on liverock. I'm not sure why everything people discuss now days has to become a heated debate. When the folks that pioneered the Berlin system first introduced LR, the benefit was the bacteria that the LR had. Hitchhikers were an interesting side effect. Now I see questions from so many people asking where they can get liverock with the most life. Tampa Bay saltwater for instance mines petrified reefs and plants them in the ocean. Then collects them and sells them submersed in water, so that reefers can enjoy the benefit of extra shipping charges, gorilla crabs and mantis shrimp. So what do I see wrong with TB Saltwater. The rock is not as pourous, it has sponges that will die, it comes from sub tropical waters instead of tropical waters, and it has hitchhikers. Who the heck wants hitchhikers? You spend all this time and effort to make RO water because you want to know exactly whats in the water, you quaratine all your new arrivals, and then you dump a rock in with who know what? Doesn't make sense.

As far as the curing process. You may lose almost all the pretty colors. But some always remains. You have seeded your tank. If your light and tank parameters are condusive for that color of algae, it will grow back.

LR is for filtration and a base for corals IMO. If you don't like the way the rock looks or you don't like the color, cover it up with coral.

Just my 2 cents.

Mike

 

[shallowreef]

My feel on this subject is that by letting everything cure for a week or two what you are mainly doing is letting everything that has died in the transport pretty much disolve. I myself have never scrubbed a single piece of LR or cured for more than a week so i'm an oddball compared to you guys.

 

[sytnom]

If you have a new tank, I'd put it in and watch all the wonders come to life, I love the hobby because of the critters, the fish are just a nice perk. If you want a sterile RO/DI skimmed, medicated, antiseptic tank, boil the stuff and kill everything. There are always two views. I like natural and full of wonder, others like to feel like they can control nature, whatever floats your boat. The point is, do it the way that it makes you happy. I'm happy with nature running my tank.

Basically, if you like the "critters" that will come in and you like finding new and amazing life everytime you observe your tank, put the rock in asap and and let it come to life. If you like to "control" your little piece of the ocean, go sterile and kill it all and "control" what goes in.

Good luck!
Monty

 

[MCary]

Monty,

While I agree with you whole heartedly, you made the controlled environment sound like a bad thing. There is nothing natural about your reef tank. It is an artificially created enclosed attempt at an ecosystem. Putting a Hawaiin yellow tang with a Red sea purple in my case, is hardly natural. Feeding bloodworms again, not natural. I appreciate that you like the discovery aspect of liverock. You are not unique in that. But the atternative is not sterile and un-natural. the alternative is not having a Gorilla crab eating your new $3000 Gem Tang, or more realistically, some weird nudibranch chomping your new Blue Tort.

Mike

 

[class clown]

Theres always two sides, aren't there (chuckle)?... I can see both of your points, so there i took the easy way out by not choosing sides.

 

[Curtswearing]

others like to feel like they can control nature, whatever floats your boat. The point is, do it the way that it makes you happy. I'm happy with nature running my tank.

There is more than one way to skin a cat and you should run your tank the way that you see fit as long as your responsible about it. I tend to rely on natural processes as little as possible. Simply because I cannot control it.

If you like to "control" your little piece of the ocean, go sterile and kill it all and "control" what goes in.

I might be reading you wrong. (Typed words don't show facial expressions and other emotional cues). However, it APPEARS to me, that you are saying do what, "Makes you happy", on one hand and then with the other hand saying that those who choose to do so are running sterile, dead tanks, and have control problems. Again, I could be wrong for the reasons stated above. I'm just asking for clarification.

I prefer skimmers over macroalgae fuges because skimmers never go asexual and release all of their gametes and absorbed nutrients back into the water. I prefer 'cooked' rock over non-cooked rock if I want to run an SPS tank due to the phosphate issue. I've cooked rock....trust me, you aren't killing everything and turning it sterile.

 

[Ed Hahn]

Monty,

While I agree with you whole heartedly, you made the controlled environment sound like a bad thing. There is nothing natural about your reef tank. It is an artificially created enclosed attempt at an ecosystem. Putting a Hawaiin yellow tang with a Red sea purple in my case, is hardly natural. Feeding bloodworms again, not natural. I appreciate that you like the discovery aspect of liverock. You are not unique in that. But the atternative is not sterile and un-natural. the alternative is not having a Gorilla crab eating your new $3000 Gem Tang, or more realistically, some weird nudibranch chomping your new Blue Tort.

Mike

true, but what if you have a rare hitchhiker come in like the Purple monster or something simmilar and you just introduced it others to farm it. You could introduce new colors, structures, and it would be your coral.

 

[MCary]

I would say that the chances of you getting a rare coral, or even a brown button polyps is about 1000x less that getting a mantis shrimp. Its pretty rare that you get a free coral with you liverock.

 

[Ed Hahn]

Mantis Shrimp only come from certain areas. I would take that bet.