Refugium help

[MarineDreamer]

So here's the skinny. I'm in the process of setting up a 240 gallon display. (96x24x24) Attached to the display is a 40 gallon sump and a 110 gallon refugium. I've got close to a hundred and sixty pounds of LR in the display and nothing else in it at this point. In the refugium I put in 210 pounds of sugar sized sand and some Caluerpa and some Cheeto. The ‘fuge is currently lit by four 24" T-5's 24 hours a day. (MH lighting to come.) The display currently is unlit. I'm getting a little (very little) bloom, which seems to have already stabilized.

Amonia:0
Nitrate: 0
Nitite:0
Ph: 9.08 (Calibrated within the last thirty days)
Temp: 78.0 F (RK2 controlled)

I haven't tested for Alk or Ca at this point.

My concern is that I am unable to see any 'pods. Heck I can't even see tracks in the sand. I threw some LR from my 55 into the refugium, and the feather worms are all extended and multiplying, but no 'pods. The main purpose of the refugium is to grow amphipods for the three Mandarins that will be added to the display down the road.

Any suggestions? I was thinking that maybe I needed to start feeding the refugium? If so, how much and how often should I start with? I would also like to see the Marco fill the entire water volume. (It's just a 5x5x5 ball healthy looking ball at this point.)

 

[Scooterman]

You have all this & no thread with all the details & pictures?

Have you checked at night & spot light?

You may need to let your sb mature some so it can support them better, it takes months to really get a sb kicking good.

You can order some on-line but you will have to make sure it has food to keep them alive & multiplying. You could add a couple damsels in there & feed them, maybe even a couple engineer Gobi's to sand sift, they get really big & will help turn the sb up.

 

[MarineDreamer]

You have all this & no thread with all the details & pictures?

-Sigh- Scooty, Scooty, Scooty

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19566

And yes, I know. It needs to be updated.

Have you checked at night & spot light?

Would that work with a 24/7 lighting scheme? Oh, you must be talking about one of them million candle power spotlights!

You may need to let your sb mature some so it can support them better, it takes months to really get a sb kicking good.

You can order some on-line but you will have to make sure it has food to keep them alive & multiplying. You could add a couple damsels in there & feed them, maybe even a couple engineer Gobi's to sand sift, they get really big & will help turn the sb up.

I've got some Chromis in Q now. I was planning on putting them into the display. I wasn't planning on putting any fish into the 'fuge. Reading Anthony and Bob's book, I came to the understanding that the fish would compete for food (detritus) with the 'pods.

I believe you with respects to developing the SB. I've got all the time in the world. It's just that I expected to see 'pods running around by now as part of the maturing process. Most especially the amphipods.

 

[Scooterman]

OK, guess I forgot about your thread.
No spot light your LR & see If you got any there. I would probably run your fuge lights like 18/20 hours a day, see how that works.
Depending on the fish, I guess Like the Gobi's yea, a couple damsels in such a large fuge i don't think would hurt them enough but, really when you think about the purpose of the refugium, it is fed by the main display & being you don't have much going on in there then the cycle (process) between the fuge. & the main display & sump isn't complete & therefore won't thrive until you get it all going.
My last tank had pods like crazy couldn't believe it on how well & how many I had. I added pods on my current tank & to date haven't seen any signs of them.
IMO, I'd just get your lights set-up the way you want & once your cycled just start putting fish in to your display, starting with the least aggressive first. In time the rest will mature & you should get the pods you need, Mandarins require a large supply of pods constantly to thrive & live long, otherwise they will eventually starve to death, IMO even If you can get them to eat things other than pods. To me that is like getting you to live on cow hide because the supply of your normal food was short coming.

 

[OldFishMan]

Hello;

Maybe, we should call this a sump until something is actually growing in it.

It takes a long time to get a big sand bed cooking good, and you need to feed these critters. They will come in time.

Scooterman, IMHO a long light schedule like that has caused many a lot of problems with "unwanted" Algae.

I like all the Algae I can grow!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Definition of Bored : "To be without options or variables!"

"OFM"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enjoy!

OFM

 

[MarineDreamer]

Yes, my first tank was the same way. The ‘pods where just absolutely everywhere. It was like the rock just came alive after the lights went out. And the same with this tank, no nothing, nada. I have grabbed a 1 watt LED blue ‘moonlight’ and wandered around the tank at night… but I still haven’t seen any ‘pods.

And there in lies the crux of my problems, I think. I want to start adding fish to the display; of course starting with the least aggressive. That would be the Mandarins. I wanted to put two females and one male in all at once. But I don’t believe that the ‘fuge has matured to the point of sustaining one Mandarin let alone three.

I was planning of buying a supply of ‘pods for the QT for when I get the Mandarins. But I was rather hoping to avoid having constantly order ‘pods for them once they’re in the main display.

But what I think that we’re closing in on here, is once the Chromis are out of QT, to go head and get the Mandarins, plan on supplementing the ‘pods until the ‘fuge matures to the point of sustaining them. This way the Mandarins can be established before the other selections of fish are added.

 

[Scooterman]

Scooterman, IMHO a long light schedule like that has caused many a lot of problems with "unwanted" Algae.

I like all the Algae I can grow!

That is why I suggested a shorter lighting period, compared to the 24/7 he is running now but the reasoning to having a long photo period is to out compete the main display.

 

[MarineDreamer]

Hello;

Maybe, we should call this a sump until something is actually growing in it.

It takes a long time to get a big sand bed cooking good, and you need to feed these critters. They will come in time.

Scooterman, IMHO a long light schedule like that has caused many a lot of problems with "unwanted" Algae.

I like all the Algae I can grow!

Hey OFM,

You’d be right. The ‘fuge is looking pretty durn sterile right now.

To the best of my understanding, Caluerpa does best under 24/7 lighting. By 'best' I mean that it won't go sexual on you. Also with 24/7 lighting you don't get the Ph shift, which is true in my case. My ph tends to stay right around 9. Not that I have anything else in the tank right now...:shock: I have had mircoalgae bloom that has since petered out. But I feel I must add this: The main display is unlit. I was trying to limit the bloom to just the ‘fuge. So I'm thinking the higher forms are now in charge.

I agree: I want all the “macro” algae to fill the entire volume of the ‘fuge!

 

[csababubbles]

three mandarins in a 240 tank is trouble in my experience. if you get two males they will fight and those fights, while interesting to watch, i'm sure you dont want this. I used to have paired up mandarins and they lived very well together for about 5 years before they went to another tank. But they were collected together (or so I was informed. If you just throw in three random mandarins in your tank two things will most likely happen. First they will fight. Second the supply of pods from your size tank and display will hopefully be able to support one of these guys (as long as you don't have other competition for the same kind of food). Trying to support three on the natural fauna produced by a 100 gallon refugium will be a very difficult task. switching them over to prepared foods will help but If you really want to try and have a successful keeping of a mandarin I would only suggest one for your tank size.

 

[OldFishMan]

Hello;

Something to read when you are bored:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/nftt/index.php

IMHO : You may need many forms of Algae to limit certain elements like Phosphate, Nitrate, and Silicate. There are tables and a lot of information on the internet. I use Chaeto, and anything else that grows in my tank and never have to deal with these problems. My Tang (Yellow) eats this stuff all day, even hunts for it when it gets low. It looks like a mess when I feed the Tang in the main display but, in a few days it eats all of it. I limit nothing and even feed my tank Flourish and a lot of Iron. In my opinion I would rather use hair Algae for control instead of Caulerpa as it is easier to control "when" Caulerpa decides to go sexual. A couple of Turbo Snails eat a lot of hair Algae and they keep my hair Algae in check with a little "Nitrate" harvesting on my part.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"What would you do with a brain if you had one!"

"Dorothy -- Wizard of Oz"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enjoy!

OFM

 

[OldFishMan]

Hello;

I started with about a quart of Chaeto --- I have a thrown out many 10-gallon size balls of this stuff. You do not have to keep it tumbling, and you do not need high wattage lighting to keep it growing, a reverse light schedule works well. I feed Iron, Flourish, and it gets everything else from the main tank.

More light + more food = more Algae

If you are under-filtered it will collect diatoms (brown), it usually stays a beautiful green, lighter on the top layers and darker at the bottom. I usually turn it over every couple of weeks. It also is a home for many critters and micro-stars love it.

I have grown tank fulls in a 10-gallon tank with 30-watts of light, only feed Flourish and a little Fresh water fish food and the tank stayed other Algae free. I used an old Penguin 330 hooked to an undergravel plate with 2-inches of gravel substrate.

I use the Spaghetti algae (Chaetomorpha linum) -Macro Algae.

There are many beautiful types of Algae, I hope others will share their knowledge and experiences.



Enjoy!

OFM

 

[returnofsid]

Is it possible that the live rock and live sand you added were "sterile?" Were they dry? The problem could be that you never had any pods to begin with. Gotta have some to start with. Try buying a quart of pod filled Chaeto from a LFS or getting some from another local reefer. Adding this to your fuge should give you a good "kick start."

I also think you'd be better off by limiting your light. All macro algae need some "night" period. It doesn't have to be very long. Chaeto does better with a day/night cycle. It also won't go sexual and is a great absorber of nitrates and phosphates. It's also a great environment for those wonderful lil' critters we all want to thrive in.

 

[Sweet Reefer]

I would switch to chaeto myself, that's what I did actually. Except for a little caulerpa I haven't gotten out yet because I don't have 10 hours to spend with tweezers to get it off the rocks.

Seeding the refugium is almost a must, I think. I went to a LFS where I noticed they had pods in a tank with the blue leg crabs in it. I bought a dozen crabs and asked for a scoop of the "junk" off the bottom. It took a couple weeks then the population exploded. I had cycled uncured live rock in the connected display, so there was a ton of algae and nutrients to feed them. All nitrates from that cycle converted into chaeto and pods and worms from 60's to <5 in about 4-6 weeks. No export, well except the caulerpa I took out which had quadrupled in size. I ordered a fuge seeder kit from somebody on ebay after that which is how I got worms/stars.

So, in short, I would seed it and add some nutrient import. Your fish would work and I personally would dose a little phytoplankton periodically for a while to feed the babies. And don't be dismayed if you have the "real" new tank blooms once you start adding some nutrient to the system, better to get through it and have a mature system than to try to not allow it to happen and battle it for years as many seem to do.

Also, not a fish expert by any means, but I would research and consider one or a mated pair at most for the mandarins.