Revival of RUGF including NNR ! !

[ethanriley]

There is tons of info on this subject but I have yet found, still looking for you, any info on sediment size for denitrit, that is "best".

There is lost here, to help you undestand;
http://www.ozestuaries.org/indicator...efficiency.jsp

There is also the book the book I mentioned;
Introduction to the Study of the Meiofauna

which abounds with info but nothing on denitrif..

IMHO, based on data and articles, it makes not difference what the sediment size is, in research or in nature, just whether or not it is taking place. You only need a hypoxic zone. It should be obvious, that it can occur in any sediment size and maybe that is why it is not an issue in research papers or books. What you are trying to do is a little different, create a hypoxic zone, based on sediment size, in a reef tank.

Two of my books really get into the subject of bacterial biogeochemistry ( the actual title of one), with chapters just on sediments and denitrif. and neither even breaths the word sediment size. All of the articles I looked at do not either.

Boomer I am trying to find how I googled it yesterday but the article I was reading referred to particle size as important for the purposes of development of faculative bacteria under hypoxic conditions not from the actual bacteria benefitting from a particular media size but the "filter" benefitting from a particualr particle size which allowed consistent flow over a sustained period of time. I think it is fair to argue that "sand" size is significant in the development of the long term health of such a denitrifying system and shouldn't be dismissed to prevent clogging.

 

[ethanriley]

http://www.yale.edu/environment/publications/bulletin/100pdfs/100Orsonprice.pdf Here is one of the articles that references sediment size

 

[ethanriley]

Boomer your genius gives me a head ache LOL and I mean that in a good way. I am still reading, but the way I see it A reverse flow under gravel system to me is:

a) very similar to a plenum
b) perhaps more sophisticated in that there is a measured flow of low oxygenated water pumped through it
c) Should be able to be combined with a DSB provided that grain size is taken into consideration to prevent clogging.

Perhaps (c) is not the most significant if you are only dealing with substrate depths of one to three inches. Sorry being the simple minded man I am I try to assimilate as much as I can and then put it into practicle application. Can Barry Paul or Boomer summarize what "should" work when combining one or more of these ideas to improve denitrification? PLEASE

 

[Paul B]

Andrew, I would not be the one to summarize what should work. I think that would be Boomer but I will say again that whatever grain size you start off with it will gradually change due to detritus and the wearing away of the sharp angles of the gravel making the spaces in between smaller along with a portion of the gravel breaking and making smaller fragments. These things will not cause a small change, they will cause a very large change in flow over time. I am only bringing this up because there are a lot of numbers for flow rates and gravel size going on here and it can not be taken as Gospel over time. The other thing I would like to say is an UG filter of any type is not really the best method of nitrate removal. It will work somewhat but denitrification is not the major benefit of a RUGF.
It obviousely works in my tank and as stated, it probably does so accidently. To conduct a test you would have to run a RUGF with no live rock and see how it processes nitrate. Of course you may have to let it run for a year to mature it enough.
:lol:
Paul

 

[ethanriley]

So then Paul what are the major benefits of RFUGF in your opinion?

 

[Paul B]

Andrew, I think I said it somewhere here. IMO, it is the best all around system because if it is installed correctly, there is very little maintenance, it is very cheap, Very little chance of a crash due to hydrogen sulfide or power loss, looks nice, and I have proof that it can last at least 35 years.
The downside is that it is not the best for denitrofication, the gravel has to be stirred occasionally, and the sponge prefilters have to be rinsed. I would imagine that it would also benefit copepod populations due to the fact that they can live all through the substrait.
Paul

 

[wave98]

Current HYPOXIA Program Questions (Harvey, Bohlke, Voytek):

Streamwater flows easily through the relatively coarse stream bottom sediments at Sugar Creek, Indiana (2-mm median grain size), delivering streamwater nitrate to sites of potential denitrification as deep as 10 - 15 cm in the streambed. Can evidence be found for denitrification throughout the entire depth of the hyporheic zone, and is this 'deeper' component of flow and reaction in this environment important for reducing downstream nitrogen loads? What is the relative importance of hydrologic (stream velocity, grain size, and hydraulic conductivity of bed sediment) and biogeochemical factors (nitrate concentration, carbon quantity and quality, and redox potential in bed sediment) that affect the rate of denitrification in the streambed?

These guys are directly "on to" the necessary information for this application, which is valuable as well to Frequent Plenum Wasting, which I also promote.

Boomer, can you get us more info. from this source, or a link, or whatever. It would be highly appreciated.

I'm really not concerned about being able to create the Hypoxic conditions. It is the fauna that will or will not thrive in the smaller denitrfying grain size that I am interested in. There is a great deal of controversy, still, about the role of "fauna" in a "properly functioning" sand bed, and the "substrate" that they require. Too much of this comes from Shimek, and I won't look there for my understandings on the subject.

Andrew:
a) The RUGF has very little in common with Plenum Systems as they are currently known. It is quite similar to a Plenum design that I am working on, but nobody knows about it.

b)Low oxygen water is not being pumped through the substrate. The oxygen level is being allowed to remain Hypoxic as opposed to Anoxic by way of the Oxic( high oxygen ) water being pumped thru.

c) Both grain size AND composition should be considered to avoid clogging, along with a particular level of filtration. Paul only uses a sponge, which is not much of a filter, but the stirring and siphoning maintanence make up for it.

Paul, I think if you could hold some of these glass beads in your hand, it would be something of a revelation. They are round and smooth, there are no sharp edges and no "fines", they will not wear down. With "pupose built channels" of 3-6mm beads ( 1/8" to 1/4" ) and finer filtrtation, clogging will be "nearly" nonexistant below the critter screen in these glass beads.

> Barry

 

[Paul B]

Barry I would like to see those beads. In the meantime I have another experiment to enhance the denitrification of a RUGF. I will probably not do this because as I said in my reef now the nitrate is zero but I may try this someday in an lfs. Since my UG is run in reverse I could limit the oxygen pumped through the gravel by just running the water through a cylindrical container filled with gravel, sand, beads whatever. The oxygen will be partially eliminated before the water went through the RUGF. Of course, by doing this the nitrate would also be converted in the container rendering the UG filter useless but it would allow one to use gravel as a substrait and still have nitrate removal. The cylinder can be any depth and the gravel could be any size so partial or complete oxygen removal is possable. I would imagine an electronic oxygen meter would be very helpful here as the readings would constantly change depending on fish load, flow rate, clogging, temperature and age.
Just one more thing to do in the future.
Take care.
Paul

 

[Boomer]

Andrew

That article you posted says nothing about denitification, which is the issue. Books and articles are everywhere on the relationship of fauna to grain size. In any "sand bed" be it a tank, river, lake or ocean, grain size is about the most import factor. There are many studies on the layering of sediments in an aqueous environment and what lives there.

Barry

but this does not occur with a commonality, to compare with generally Hypoxic zones.

Yes it is commonality but one can not say to what degree it takes place, at least in a reef tank. Some tanks may be more tha others by chance. Thet also grow on the underside of macro's, "leaves". Some reefers have BB tanks and no NO3- but most is taking place within the LR.

The "grain channels" also offer a very much larger surface area of Hypoxic condition than any other method.

You really can not say that as there is no means to know if the grain channels are oxic, hypoxic etc.. Just because a sytem shows a loss in NO3- to N2 gas does not mean it is the bed. However, it may be or usually is. How are you going to know if those channels are oxic, hypoxic or anoxic. The issue is to get the water hypoxic to begin with, as it will start out oxic. The O2 in the bed needs to loose O2 to get there, reach hypoxic and not go anoxic. That can be a very fine line. I'm not saying your system wont' work, the issue is it any better. It is a theory Sand will still plug in time even gravel plugs. Organics will be brought into the bottom of the SB, bacteria will grow and many will sheet, close, plug those channels, impede flow and may turn much of it anoxic. BUT, even a DSB or even a std UGF can do this.

I agree with your choice of beads as a substrate, do to laws of fluid dynamics. Beads will cause less channeling than actual sand grains.

Boomer, can you get us more info. from this source, or a link, or whatever. It would be highly appreciated.

I did not give the link as this is a summary of a new project and questions they want to answer.


http://water.usgs.gov/nrp/jharvey/site/ttnsaa.html

also look through these

http://water.usgs.gov/nrp/currenttopics.html

 

[MikeS]

Just a thought....with an increase in flow through the substrate itself as being discussed here...how quickly do you all think you'll start to get ammonia interference with denitrification? I would imagine it would be accelertated in a system like this...any thoughts?

MikeS

 

[wave98]

Yes it is commonality but one can not say to what degree it takes place, at least in a reef tank. Some reefers have BB tanks and no NO3- but most is taking place within the LR.

And at least as much more from a conventional sand bed, therefore the peviously described "Aerobic denitrification" remains an interesting side note, but to a degree that is not of much use in a denitrificaton system design.

How are you going to know if those channels are oxic, hypoxic or anoxic. The issue is to get the water hypoxic to begin with, as it will start out oxic.

Exactly ! ! The point is that the "purpose -built" channels, will accomplish this by design, and not by accident. The finer substrate ( .3-.6mm ) next to the "channel-gravel" ( 3-6mm ), will become Hypoxic from loss of "Advection" flow, and further, from bacterial activity. this is fairly predictable, and further controllable by flow rate. ( An intermediate layer of approx. 1.25-1.5mm is required between these two, to avoid "particle migration". )

The O2 in the bed needs to loose O2 to get there, reach hypoxic and not go anoxic. That can be a very fine line.

I'm not sure that Anoxic conditions need to be avoided entirely. Very many Aquarists have broken down deep sand beds after many years, to find no clumping, no noxious smells, and all clean sand. How so ? Are these beds
devoid of Anoxic areas, or is something else at work ?

Organics will be brought into the bottom of the SB, bacteria will grow and many will sheet, close, plug those channels, impede flow and may turn much of it anoxic. BUT, even a DSB or even a std UGF can do this.

Organics, will be pumped through the 3-6mm beads primarily, and most of it dissolved. The appropriate level of pre-filtration here might be 20 micron. This would allow "Interstital" pore spacing at 35 times the size of the particulate matter that would pass thru. Even in the small ( .3-.6mm ) grains this space is 3.5 times the particulate size, and while this may not entirely eliminate eventual clogging, it will certainly take very much longer to occur.

I agree with your choice of beads as a substrate, do to laws of fluid dynamics. Beads will cause less channeling than actual sand grains.

Thanks Boomer, I really needed that !

That is an intersting question Mike, and beyond my current education here, but remember, that this higher flow is through the "gravel-channels" only, and not through the substrate as a whole. The small grain ( .3-.6mm ) areas will remain essentially "no flow".

Thanks all. > Barry

 

[Paul B]

One more point I would like to mention to anyone who wants to install one of these. Mine works by gravity but it is adjustable. The water for all the lift tubes goes to a container about 6" above the water surface where it is equally divided and sent down through all three tubes. There is an overflow in this container that can be adjusted either way so that there is more or less preasure going down. I can make it so there is hardly any flow at all. If the gravel starts to clog I will know it immediately by more water coming out of the overflow and I know it's time to stir things up. Although I have 50gpm going to each downtube, it is actually slightlyless due to the overflow.
The green container (old filter box) is where the water is pumped by one powerhead. You can just about see the sponge filter at the water surface. It is there because it is simple to lift off to clean. The three tubes of course go to the plates of the 6' long tank. The overflow is the tube on the left.

 

[wave98]

I can make it so there is hardly any flow at all. If the gravel starts to clog I will know it immediately by more water coming out of the overflow and I know it's time to stir things up. Although I have 50gpm going to each downtube, it is actually slightlyless due to the overflow.

Your custom "flow meter" is a valuable aid Paul. I like it ! Your oxygen reducing canister could work fairly well. The oxygen meter, I think, would be quite necessary, at least at first. After you found out what it needs, the flow meter would probably suffice. You could read the oxygen level at the "end " of the canister, and set flow for "almost Hypoxic" at the exit, and let the RUGF and bed do all the denitrifying. It might need to have a considerable amount of "media" to appropriately do the job, like 1/4 to 1/3 as much as the gravel bed, wild guess.

I'll send you some beads.

Happy Reef Keeping ! > Barry

 

[Paul B]

Thanks, I think I have a large acrylic canister laying around, I may try it.
I need some nitrate first.
Paul

 

[Boomer]

Barry

Organics, will be pumped through the 3-6mm beads primarily, and most of it dissolved

I do not know where you got this from but it is way off base Most those organics will not dissolve at all and will remain where bacteria will feed off them. You are leaving out one of the biological processes called Mineralization

I forgot to add or correct you on the other post on O2 levels which are to high. That fine line is .1-.2 mg / l




The autotrophic denitrifiers do not function when the DO is above a critical level of 0.1 to 0.2 mg./L. A DO similar to this or slightly higher than that for the autotrophs will also inhibit activity of the facultative denitrifiers.

therefore the peviously described "Aerobic denitrification"

They are called, it is called, anaerobic facultative denitrification

Do to you interest I would strongly suggest you go look for a used copy of;

Seawater Aquariums: The Captive Environment by Stephen Soptte

and when you get it you will say holly-shit, thanks Boom

MikeS

What do you mean by;

start to get ammonia interference with denitrification?

Under low DO, the oxygen in nitrites and nitrates is utilized. However, if the ammonia is elevated it will inhibit nitrification, which will lower the amount of nitrate, which in turn will inhibit the amount of denitrification. Low ammonia input can also inhibit denitrification, as there is less nitrate.


Paul

There is an overflow in this container that can be adjusted either way so that there is more or less preasure going down

Did you steal that idea from Ehiem That is how I described the works of the Ehiem RUGF

The oxygen meter,

Have you guys looked at the price of a O2 meter that tests accurately to .1 mg / l O2 or more like 0.05 mg / l

 

[wave98]

I do not know where you got this from but it is way off base Most those organics will not dissolve at all and will remain where bacteria will feed off them.

The "organics" that make it through a 20 micron filter, will be smaller than 20 micron ( .0008" ) and much of that will be dissolved. That portion of this which is not dissolved, and therefore "particulate", will pass very very easily through the .72mm ( .028" ) interstital pore space of the 3 to 6 mm "Channel-beads".

Skimmers pick up on this "stuff" very readily.

You are leaving out one of the biological processes called Mineralization

How so ?

I forgot to add or correct you on the other post on O2 levels which are to high. That fine line is .1-.2 mg / l

Thanks Boomer, a decimal error on my part, you are quite right.

The autotrophic denitrifiers do not function when the DO is above a critical level of 0.1 to 0.2 mg./L. A DO similar to this or slightly higher than that for the autotrophs will also inhibit activity of the facultative denitrifiers.

They are called, it is called, anaerobic facultative denitrification

You are the one who brought up AEROBIC DENITRIFICATION Boomer.

You really need to read my posts more slowly, and with some interest, instead of looking for something to "make a donkey's a$$ out of". I haven't made any errors here short of a decimal placement, and the meq/l thing so far, thank you very much, so "pony-up" pardner.

Happy Reef Keeping ! > Barry

 

[Boomer]

Barry


You seem to be going off the deep end for no reason


The "organics" that make it through a 20 micron filter, will be smaller than 20 micron ( .0008" ) and much of that will be dissolved

No they will not, 20 microns is HUGDE. Under standard conditions molecules have a dimension of a few to a few dozen Ã… and 1 Ã… = .005 micron's. And that is a whole molecule. ICK parasites are a few micros. Bacteria feed off of organics, be it a particulate or molecule, dissolved or undissolved. Those " organics" will fuel bacteria druing the mineralization process. Bacteria bring about the degradation of organic compounds
, it involes things like transamination, dehydrogenation, deamianation, etc.. Mineralization is the process where all organics have been broken down to inorganics. This process produces biofilms, that coat grains and plug up passage ways. Once mineralization is complete things like nitrifcation take place, which is inorganic. You are coming accross as if this process will not take place in your system and your channels will not plug up due to biofilms. Bioflilms and detritus in beds, are the #1 inhibitor of flow. And all of these inhibit dentrification.


And "much of that will be dissolved" based on what ? What is dissolving it ? Bacteria can not break it down that fast.

How so ?

It is mineralization that will do most of the pluggging creating biofilms due to organics.

You really need to read my posts more slowly

No, that would be you. It apears that if someone disagrees with you they need to read it more slowly.



You are the one who brought up AEROBIC DENITRIFICATION Boomer.

You need to go back and read more slowly. Show me a post where I said Aerobic Denitification, I said Anaerobic Denitification. The process is called Anaerobic Facultative Dentification or AnFD. Is there such as thing as Aerobic Denitrification ( AD) or Aerobic Facualtive Dentrification ( AFD), yes, which has not been brought up yet. Nowhere in any of my posts have I used the term Aerobic Denitrification


and with some interest

I do have interest but if one disagees with you they are not interested according to you or do not understand the issue at hand according to you



This is a discussion on your RFUG and to point out the good and bad and every time a "bad" is pointed out you get all upset. It is not that I do not like your system, I do but it has some serious issues when you feed a media from the bottom.

 

[wave98]

You seem to be going off the deep end for no reason

Really ? There is a reason, But not the deep end.

No they will not, 20 microns is HUGDE.

Yes they will Boomer, who's going off the deep end ?

I will state again: The "organics" that make it through a 20 micron filter, will be smaller than 20 micron ( .0008" ) and much of that will be dissolved.

Under standard conditions molecules have a dimension of a few to a few dozen Ã… and 1 Ã… = .005 micron's. And that is a whole molecule. ICK parasites are a few micros. Bacteria feed off of organics, be it a particulate or molecule, dissolved or undissolved.

Yes, they do.

Those " organics" will fuel bacteria druing the mineralization process. Bacteria bring about the degradation of organic compounds
, it involes things like transamination, dehydrogenation, deamianation, etc..

Yes

Mineralization is the process where all organics have been broken down to inorganics. This process produces biofilms, that coat grains and plug up passage ways.

You are coming accross as if this process will not take place in your system and your channels will not plug up due to biofilms.

I stated that it would take much longer in my system. Do you disagree ?

Bioflilms and detritus in beds, are the #1 inhibitor of flow. And all of these inhibit dentrification.

Yes they are, and yes they do !

And "much of that will be dissolved" based on what ? What is dissolving it ? Bacteria can not break it down that fast.

Are you trying to say that we do not have dissolved organics in our Reef systems ?

No, that would be you. It apears that if someone disagrees with you they need to read it more slowly.

I read your posts very carefully Boomer, You have simply "passed over" several important aspects of the concept, and the explanations of the functionality. What you see as an appearance is just a spasm you're having about my asking you to consider the information that I offer more carefully.

Suggesting for me to read Spotte was when you started it Boomer, and if you want to keep going this way that is up to you. I am not really interesred, my interest is in the animals.

This is a discussion on your RFUG and to point out the good and bad and every time a "bad" is pointed out you get all upset. It is not that I do not like your system, I do but it has some serious issues when you feed a media from the bottom.

I simply do not get upset Boomer, look in the mirror. When a "bad" is pointed out, whether it is actually bad or not, I have to deal with it. This is what I have been doing.

Relax, let's start over and stick to the technical issues at hand.

Thanks > Barry

 

[ethanriley]

Guys (Paul Boomer Barry) I have to tell you I am truly fascinated and confounded by the extent of all of your knowledge. Please continue to debate your positions affectively as we simple folk continue to read and re-read and research beyond what you have offered Paul can you give a few pictures of your setup from different angles it is hard for me to get the design layout from the picture you posted? Seriously this is a thorough investigation into denitrification on the whole and very educational don't let it degenerate elsewhere You have inspired me to experiment THANKS in all seriousness!

 

[Paul B]

Quote
"Did you steal that idea from Ehiem That is how I described the works of the Ehiem RUGF"

How do you know that Eheim did not steal the Idea from me?:badgrin:


Andrew, it is hard to take a picture of my RUGF, after all it is "under gravel".
As I said it is a container (as in the picture) there are three tubes coming out going under the gravel. (I hope Eheim isn't listening:lol: ) The tubes are bent at the gravel to go to where they go under the plate.
In the container there is a hole with a tube in it that is not glued, it can slide up or down. By sliding it up the water level in the container will rise causing more preasure on the water going down the tubes. The extra water will return to the tank through the overflow. There is very little preasure now so the water does not even rise to the level of the overflow. As the gravel clogs (years) the water level rises. Of course the major adjustment is on the powerhead.
Paul