Revival of RUGF including NNR ! !

[Paul B]

Andrew. I took this picture just for you. It really hi-lites the rust on a few other things. This container for the RUGF is obviousely the prototype but unfortunately I had no time for the finished product, so it is what it is.
(If you liik close you may be able to make out the name "Eheim" :lol: )
I promise to make a better looking one but it depends on when boating season starts. I have a house full of plexiglass, just need time. This is actually the second prototype. The first one ran very well since about 1978 or so but it did not have even flow in all tubes. In the finished model the downflow tubes will be wider to allow a siphon to be inserted under the gravel.
Anyway it is the same picture as before only closer. Around the in- flow tube inside the manifold chamber (the green container) there is a plastic window screen rolled up. I do this a lot because it acts as a difuser and causes the water to flow into the chamber with no noise or splashing.
(It would also work with all of the problems I read about noisy overflows)
The overflow is the tube on the left side. There is supposed to be a tube extending down to the water but it is off right now as there is no need for an overflow yet. Paul
Ignore the rusty fan, it is a ploy to confuse Eheim):badgrin:

 

[Krish]

LOL...Paul! I think the fan will throw them off:lol: You seem to be quite the DIY'er

 

[Paul B]

Krish, If I can't build it, I don't need it.
As for DIR'er, I invented and patented this,
I also sold over 6000 of them.
Have a great day.
Paul
http://www.breedersregistry.org/Articles/v4_i3_paul_b/paul_b.htm

 

[Krish]

Krish, If I can't build it, I don't need it.
As for DIR'er, I invented and patented this,
I also sold over 6000 of them.
Have a great day.
Paul
http://www.breedersregistry.org/Arti...l_b/paul_b.htm

Can I have your yatch then??(LOL) That's a really smart idea you came up with. Sort of like a feeding cone, but enclosed. That is also a great way to not waste food and have it screw up your water floating everywhere like blood worms. Good job man...Now back to the regularly scheduled program

 

[Boomer]

Really ? There is a reason, But not the deep end.


Yup, you have and just proved it, many times. You make a personnel issue out of something that is not so. Right here, just ONE example

Suggesting for me to read Spotte was when you started it

I recommend this book all the time and is why I recommended to you, as you would like it. Allot of what we are discussing is in there in detail. It is not a Dick & Jane book but like a advanced college text ( $100 + new). Sure is funny how I said the same thing to Randy on PM's about ozone. "That if you are going to be writing about ozone and what to understand it you need this book". He did not take it that way. I just got a PM from him today thanking me. You may want to go and at least look at he table of contents. What are you afraid of learning ?


Here is what I said, read it slowly

Do to your interest I would strongly suggest you go look for a used copy of;

Seawater Aquariums: The Captive Environment by Stephen Soptte


You take things to personnel. And yes my last post was personnel due to that post of yours.

I will state again: The "organics" that make it through a 20 micron filter, will be smaller than 20 micron ( .0008" ) and much of that will be dissolved.

You need to go back and re-read your own posts

and most of it dissolved

Which you have now changed to "and much of it will be dissolved"

Ok, let me be blunt. You do not know what your are talking about here. Allot of that will be undissolved and allot will be undissolved. You have what to show me on how much is undissolved or dissolved........give and data ref.

More trying to put a spin on things

Are you trying to say that we do not have dissolved organics in our Reef systems ?

Where did I say that or even come close to saying that ? More spin.

You have simply "passed over" several important aspects of the concept, and the explanations of the functionality

I have not, some needed no comments. You just disagree if someone disagrees with your aspects or functionality.

I stated that it would take much longer in my system. Do you disagree ?

More spin. That is something that neither of us knows. You are assuming that it will, it may not. You are guessing at allot of things with no facts. We will only know what takes place once the system is up and running. You may be in for some big surprises, that it does not work as planned, then again it my work great.

I simply do not get upset Boomer, look in the mirror

It is quite evident who needs to look in the mirror. Almost every time some points something out, disagreeing with you, you go after them and all they are trying to do his help you. With insulting remarks like read slowly, look in the mirror, you are the one, heater cables, What cold water, and where does it, , etc, etc..AND THAT IS JUST ME. So it is quite clear who is upset and needs to look in the mirror. See any post of mine like that other than this one....I guess not...correct


Relax, let's start over and stick to the technical issues at hand

I'm very relaxed so lets start over. You have had your say and I have had mine. I need to throw something's at you on your system on my next post. It will deal with RUGF plate design and glass bead selection and which route you may want to go.

 

[liveforphysics]

I found the book you recomended in the college lib. Definately an awsome and info packed read, I love it!

thanks Boomer!

 

[mojoreef]

With out going through and reading every page here, Wave could you tell me exactly what you are looking for in this system.


Mike

 

[wave98]

Ok, let me be blunt. You do not know what your are talking about here. Allot of that will be undissolved and allot will be undissolved. You have what to show me on how much is undissolved or dissolved........give and data ref.

Do you mean to say, a lot will be dissloved, and a lot will be undissloved ? I assume so, and I quite agree.

Here is the statement again Boomer for the third time:

The "organics" that make it through a 20 micron filter, will be smaller than 20 micron ( .0008" ) and much of that will be dissolved. That portion of this which is not dissolved, and therefore "particulate", will pass very very easily through the .72mm ( .028" ) interstital pore space of the 3 to 6 mm "Channel-beads".

Skimmers pick up on this "stuff" very readily.

This hasn't changed, and you seem to be "spinning around" as a result. It still stands up as a statement of fact. I know what I'm talking about here, it is absolutely simple.

I have already agreed with you about the various interactions that MIGHT take place AFTER the particles and dissolved organics get through the filter. I still believe that the large channel beads will take very much longer to clog up than a conventional sand bed, and I stand by that statement. If you wish to disagree, you are welcome to do so.

So let's look at plumbing and glass beads.

> Barry

 

[wave98]

It's the same as always Mojo, I'm looking for a substrate system for the sand animals that need and enjoy it, to live and play in. Since substrate will be there for that reason, then I wish to have a reliable system, that tends to avoid clogging and hydrogen sulfide production. After that, if we can get some NNR while were at it, that's an added benefit, although not altogether necessary.

This isn't really so difficult, although grain size and the assocoiated presence of various "fauna", are points of interest.

Happy Reef Keeping ! > Barry

 

[Paul B]

Another thing I would like to add about fauna. The last time (actually, the first time) I removed the UG filter plates to clean and see what was going on under there for 25 years I was amazed to see tiny tube worms entirely through the gravel along with some very large worms. I had to call my wife to show her and she really has no interest at all. These tube worms make excellent scavengers and I am sure help to cleanse the water of tiny particulate organic matter. The anoxic regions (If there are any) would be the tiny interfaces between the gravel which would house detritus. IMO, detritus becomes inert in a short while benefiting this type of system.
You do not need a so called "anoxic" region as there will be anoxic regions dispersed throughout the gravel (in time).
Paul

 

[Maxx]

Barry,
What sort of maintenance are predicting will be necessary for this type of system? Will the glass beads prevent gravel/substrate siphoning? Are you concerned about substrate compaction at all?

Nick

 

[Boomer]

Barry


So let's look at plumbing and glass beads.

Ok beads today. You have allot to read below and I have not read it yet either, no time. I got it for your yesterday.


What ever you do not let anyone talk you into anything other than glass beads, if the selction remains beads. Some beads will get you in trouble, like ceramic

Glass bead typies;

1. Smooth Glass Beads

I do not think this is a good choice. There may be to much of an issue on "wash-out", due to the smooth slick surface. Bacteria also do not like such surfaces. These will create the least channeling but the lowest population densities of bacteria.

2. Frosted Glass Beads

I have not done on a search on these yet. The ruff surface would suit them much better.

3. Porous Glass Beads

The ideal surface for bacteria, especially Denito's. Here the Nitro's can just pass off the NO3- to the dentro's to convert to N2 gas. They like to live in the pore spaces of the media ( grain). They are often covered with a layer of Nitro's, which brings about hypoxic conditons.

I found these yesterday.

Effect of Grain Size on Bacterial Penetration, Reproduction, and Metabolic Activity in Porous Glass Bead Chambers. PK Sharma and MJ McInerney.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=201506

Dynamic Water-Entry Pressure for Initially Dry Glass Beads and Sea Sand
Takeyuki Annaka* and Susumu Hanayama

http://vzj.scijournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/4/1/127

Biolclogging of glass beads
http://www.ldd.go.th/Wcss2002/papers/1244.pdf



Just to throw into the soup

Laboratory measurement of electrokinetic potential from fluid flow in porous media

http://leme.anu.edu.au/Pubs/Monographs/regolith2005/Kim_et_al.pdf


http://www.fys.uio.no/~eaker/thesis/node58.html#figinges

 

[mojoreef]

Thats what I had thought Barry if that is the case wouldnt it be a lot better to make the whole bed as aerobic as you can???
From what little I know anaerobic slims things down to just bacteria and the odd worm going doing for a dive??


Mike

 

[wave98]

Barry,
What sort of maintenance are predicting will be necessary for this type of system? Will the glass beads prevent gravel/substrate siphoning? Are you concerned about substrate compaction at all?[/B]

Well Nick, the "intention" is to do no manitanence, below the "critter screen", which sits at the top of the "glass bead channels". There has been a terrific amount of controversy, regarding "to stir or not" in DSB's generally.

Most polls return a preference for "not stirring", however, many people do, including Paul, and often times with much success. The same can be said for the "not stirring" crowd.

The introduction of glass beads, is specificly an attempt to stay with the non-stirring method, and still reduce potentials for clogging and clumping.

The reason for the critter screen is to allow the "channels" which are purpose-built by use of differing grain sizes, to remain undisturbed by animals, and even human maintanence, so that the puposeful channeling can remain evenly disbursed throughout the bed area.

Above the critter screen is about 2" of whatever you want for your animals, and they along with various "infauna" are to be encouraged to mess about within this upper layer to their hearts content. If they aren't keeping it turned, the aquarist could certainly help them out occasionally. I highly prefer carefully graded substrate even in this top layer, to avoid "fines", and the compacting that they would promote.

The big difference here, with more typical RUGF, is that the vertical channels allow very much higher flow, which is good for keeping detritus out of the substrate, while still maintaining Hypoxic areas near the boundary between large and small grain sizes.

I am not worried about compaction at all in the glass bead layers. That is another reason for using them.

> Barry

 

[wave98]

What ever you do not let anyone talk you into anything other than glass beads, if the selction remains beads. Some beads will get you in trouble, like ceramic

These are the beads I'm currently looking at ( and have samples of ). There are other sources, which I haven't yet investigated, but these look pretty good. I got the thumbs up from Randy Farley, before I considered them in earnest.

http://www.ceroglass.com/prod_grinding.asp?ID=46

1. Smooth Glass Beads

I do not think this is a good choice. There may be to much of an issue on "wash-out", due to the smooth slick surface. Bacteria also do not like such surfaces. These will create the least channeling but the lowest population densities of bacteria.

I'm not sure if I follow you on "wash-out". Is this some occasional "release" of bio-film that would cause inconsistent processing, or something else ? Are smaller bacterial populations going to promote more "bio-clogging" ?

2. Frosted Glass Beads

I have not done on a search on these yet. The ruff surface would suit them much better.

One of the links, references "acid-etched" beads. Or some other process ?

3. Porous Glass Beads

The ideal surface for bacteria, especially Denito's. Here the Nitro's can just pass off the NO3- to the dentro's to convert to N2 gas. They like to live in the pore spaces of the media ( grain). They are often covered with a layer of Nitro's, which brings about hypoxic conditons.

H-m-m-m . Not familiar with the porous beads. Sounds interesting.

I read the links rather carefully, and skimmed a little bit. I didn't find that much that I could relate specificly to this application. Smaller beads, less flow and more bacteria. Also less "diffusive" migration of non-motile bacteria. I don't know that much yet, regarding motile vs non-motile bacteria, and their comparative value in our tanks. Still, VERY interesting.

Good links Boomer, Thanks.

> Barry

 

[wave98]

.

Thats what I had thought Barry. If that is the case wouldnt it be a lot better to make the whole bed as aerobic as you can???

Sounds like bio-balls, what is your intention with an aerobic bed ? Remember that the animals that "need-like" the substrate, tend to prefer rather fine, and up to about 1.5mm grain sizes.

From what little I know anaerobic slims things down to just bacteria and the odd worm going doing for a dive??

So humble, Mike, you know plenty ! I don't expect there to be much in the way of truly Anoxic ( DEVOID of oxygen ) area in the set-up. Maybe a bit. The vertical columns of smaller grains would only be about 2 1/2" wide with aerobic water flowing on either side.

Not so likely to become Anoxic as a 4" to 6" deep bed of "oolitic" sand. I guess I could use one of those very expensive oxygen probes that Boomer was referring to.

> Barry

 

[wave98]

Another thing I would like to add about fauna.

The last time (actually, the first time) I removed the UG filter plates to clean and see what was going on under there for 25 years I was amazed to see tiny tube worms entirely through the gravel along with some very large worms. These tube worms make excellent scavengers and I am sure help to cleanse the water of tiny particulate organic matter.

It is this type of fauna, that I would like to have a good environment for, in the smaller grain sizes, and what causes me to look for the best grain size here.

Thanks > Barry

 

[mojoreef]

Sounds like bio-balls, what is your intention with an aerobic bed ? Remember that the animals that "need-like" the substrate, tend to prefer rather fine, and up to about 1.5mm grain sizes.

No no I was refering to some kind of sand substraight. By saying areobic I was refering to a well oxygenated substraight. Beyond bacteria mast all fauna live in this zone as they need oxygen in order to breathe. Critter (beyond bacteria) that live in finer sand tend to make that their home and dont wonder far from (if they ever actually come out of the sand).
Are you looking for critter that may suppliment feeding?? or just for looks??


Mike

 

[wave98]

No no I was refering to some kind of sand substraight.

By saying areobic I was refering to a well oxygenated substraight.

Yes Mike, I understand. By saying "Bio-Balls", I was referring to a "Nitrate Factory". What is your intended Nitrate Solution ?

Are you looking for critter that may suppliment feeding?? or just for looks??

Critters that I like to look at first ( gobies, shrimp, burrowers, etc. ), and supplemental feeding secondarily. The main purpose of any "fauna" that we foster "in the bed", is for the health of the bed.

If any "food" can be promoted, "in the bed", that is a plus, but if it represents a complication to the health of the animals, the bed, or maintanence and reliability, then food production can certainly be done elsewhere.

> Barry

 

[wave98]

Another thing I would like to add about fauna. The last time (actually, the first time) I removed the UG filter plates to clean and see what was going on under there for 25 years I was amazed to see tiny tube worms entirely through the gravel along with some very large worms.

Paul, it is these little tube worms especially, along with various small fauna, that I would like to promote. Could you tell us a bit more about your 6 mo. maintanence here. Are these little tube worms significantly disturbed, when you stir and filter ?

Thanks > Barry