Salt mixing

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DonW

R.I.P.
Joined
Dec 15, 2003
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Tacoma, WA
Boomer,
Just brain storming another piece of automation so just theoretical.
If you dump a few cups of salt in a 5micron filter sock then pump water through the sock would the effluent be safe for immediate use. Assuming the ph, sg and temp are correct?

Thanks
Don
 
I do that all the time. It may cloud the water a little but if you have a lot of water going through the sock you should be fine.
 
I do that all the time. It may cloud the water a little but if you have a lot of water going through the sock you should be fine.

Its not disolved if its clouding the water, that I wouldnt do with a sps tank. I'm thinking clear water. I know with IO you can get clear water with a 25 micron pleated filter but thats the extent of what Ive experimented with.

Don
 
Don - I'm curious on your automation thoughts with this. Why the use of a filter sock?

I know this probably wouldn't tie into an automated system, but according to this article, you can mix ASW quickly by using a propeller type mixer: How to Mix a Batch of Synthetic Seawater in Under Five Minutes by Craig Bingman.

When industrial chemists need to dissolve large quantities of chemicals in a vat, they often specify electrical mixing motors, which drive a shaft tipped with one propeller or more. You can do much the same thing, on a smaller scale, with a special polypropylene-clad shaft and propeller that is driven with a household drill. Using such a propeller and drill, I can mix 15-gallon batches of synthetic seawater in about a minute. With the appropriate amount of water and such rapid mixing, the synthetic seawater has virtually no opportunity to form insoluble materials.
 
Nikki,
Currently I use a big 43g trash can with 4 salt tubes. The salt tubes are really just premeasured silo's with electronic release trap doors. The system will make the mix by it self four times before the silo's have to be refilled. Obviously this takes alot of space in my tiny laundry room, so I'm working on a system that requires no mixing vat. The sock is just theoretical, but probably isnt the filter of choice just something we all recognize. Currently the system will only allow the water change to happen if the parameters are correct so it works great but again takes up way to much space. I definately would not want to dump undisolved IO back to my tank, this is where the filter come in.


Don
 
I just realized that i didn't mention that it will only cloud your tank if you add too much at one time. Your only suppose to raise your salinity like .5 a day anyways so can't add all that much. I usually do a cup every other hour till it gets up to where it needs to be. You are right though about having concern with an SPS tank. I always do this on my fowlr and LPS tanks i never did it when i did SPS. I also did not use 25 micron bags i was using 100 and 200 micron bags so it may never happen with a 25 micron bag. Just My Experience.

Nick
 
I'm really not that concerned about the salt since it disolves almost instantly. I'm really wondering about everthing else that is in the mix, in powder form. My current system preheats the water before the salt dumps, so that helps alot. I'm sure I can come up with something that will work as a preheater.

Don
 
Don I think that is a good idea and have no issue with it at all as long as all the salt is dissolved and not clouding the water. I would try to run some tests and check water parameters, i.e., Ca++, Mg++, pH, Alk and compare to a mixer test, as Nikki showed and/or a 24 hr old fashion mixed and aerated test.

One note; 25 micron Does not mean all is dissolved. Ions are much smaller than that.
 
One other issue. IO will be the big test, as other salts my work great with your method. Why ? You may not know this but many of the salts that dissolve really quick is do to an increased chloride level, i.e., a cheat method/sales scheme to claim "look how much faster our salt dissolves". Higher chloride levels, in proportion to other ions, decreases the *activity coefficient* of the water, making most things go more quickly into solution and allowing higher concentrations of x, y or z to be raised to higher levels.
 
Let me make that more simple.

If you had a sample of RO/DI water and dissolved table salt in it, until it reached saturation and then measured the amount of table salt in the water, you would get x amount. Now, if you made up a batch of seawater and then dissolved a bunch of table salt in it until it reached saturation and then measured all the table salt in it ( don't forget seawater already has lost of table salt in it), the seamix will have more table salt in it than the RO/DI. All of those other ions in seawater help/allow it to dissolve more table salt.

Here's another try at explaining activity coefficients I got from long ago when Randy and I where explaining this on the chem forum to someone.

Me;
One way to look at activity is to think that ions in solution can only do two things; leave solution or stay in solution. If the activity is high they are not happy, they are active and want to go some place. If they can not stay in solution there is only one place to go precip out of solution. If the activity is low, they are not active, they do not want to go anywhere and are happy and stay in solution.

When you add salt to a solution it lowers their activities. Since they are less active they do not want to go anywhere, so they stay in solution.This means you can now add other ions also salts to the mix, which are also happy as their activity has also been lowered. Thus, you can dissolve more of these also which will stay in solution........all to a point of course


Randy;

If you think of Mg(OH)2 dissolving, you are going from a solid where the Mg++ and OH- are very near to each other,to dissolve into Mg++ and OH- that are farther apart. So there is an electrostatic energy of interaction between the positive and negative charges that is lost when those ions are pulled apart.

In very dilute solution, that effect is countered by the energy that is given off when water surrounds each ion that comes off. That is why salts dissolve at all.

So in the end, you reach a balance between the lost electrostatic energy, and the gained hydration energy.

OK, so now look at the situation with a large amount of Na+ and Cl- ions also in solution.

In that case, the Mg++ and OH- ions that go out into solution are not so all alone. An Mg++ can have nearby Cl- ions, and the OH- can have nearby Na+ ions (providing some electrostatic energy). So the electrostatic energy lost is not so large. Since the hydration energy stays largely the same, the overall solubility goes up.

So most ionic salts are more soluble in NaCl solutions than in water. And most acids and bases that tend to ionize will be more prone to be in their most highly charged form. This is one reason why pKa's sometimes shift considerably between freshwater and seawater.
 
That makes sense. The process with the current schematic should take around 5 hours to make 40 gallons my thinking is this may be slow enough? I can really only do 10 gallons at a time without shutting anything down so hopefully it will be slow enough. The one problem with the slow process is overcomming the normal evaporation during the hour or so that it takes. Eventually without any adjustment the salinity will climb. I may just test the process manually with the three chambers since I already have them.

Thanks
Don
 

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