Salt the question, once again!

[Scooterman]

Wit, your saying for a 40g tub 1 tsp is all that is needed to buffer to a prefered level, do you bake it first, or just stright from the box?
Also does anyone test their water before and after a water change?
Also test the water made up before going in? So that would be three test at once!.

 

[Witfull]

i typoed..1 tablespoon...i take a scoop, drop it in as its being made and i have a PH in the barrel. yes i baje it to drive off CO2, and keep it a gladware tub right next to my Balls pickling lime, which i drip for all evap replacement, since i use the same water for my kalk, i dont super charge the alk in the barrel but merely enhance it due to the RO stripping the water of everything but the H2O.

 

[Witfull]

Chill out dude! I could ask you all the same questions reversed...

ok,,ill play

CHEMISTRY AND THE AQUARIUM by RANDY HOLMES-FARLEY, Ph.D.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2004/chem.htm

I prefer to use baked baking soda rather than washing soda in this recipe as baking soda from a grocery store is always food grade, while washing soda may not have the same purity requirements. Arm & Hammer brand is a fine choice.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

Baking Soda

To raise 50 gallons of tank water by 1 meq/L will require about 16 grams of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate; sodium hydrogencarbonate). Since a level teaspoon of baking soda weighs just under 6 grams, then 1 teaspoon will raise the alkalinity in that 50 gallons by ~0.4 meq/L (~1 dKH).




your turn, my dear ole chum.

 

[reedman]

Thanks Wit.

I thought that when I said

I don't mean to launch an attack, so please don't take it that way...

that would clarify my post as not an attack.

Sorry to offend Dude! Just trying to prevent the panic that always happens when someone says you shouldn't use a particular chemical that has been used for years. And like Wit posted, there is plenty of documented literature to support using baking soda in the aquarium as an alkalinity buffer. I haven't seen any to support your statement. I was hoping you would post some more info so I could read up on it and learn.

Just trying to keep this an educational post based on documented information, and not conjecture.

 

[Scooterman]

Thanks Wit, I like that set-up, I wish here in Louisiana they made homes with basements, I could use the space!

 

[Craig Manoukian]

Chill out dude!

If you re-read the post you quoted no chill needed, eh?

I have been using Marine Envirnoment 2 Part salt for over a year. I don't have to add anything and my parameters have been rock solid. I add regular tap water to top off evaporation (my tap water is 40ppm or less) and change about 5 gallons a month in my 80 gallon.

Everything is on the grow and my fish are healthy. Very easy water maintenance schedule is much to my liking.

 

[WaterDogs]

Thanks for providing the links above. The articles says you can use baking soda which I already knew, but you notice there is no mention of lasting effects unless it is used in combination with other ingredients. Also I would like to add that the author of those articles has lot of educational theory he draws off and little experience in the hobby that shows, so I do take his posts very lightly.

I got into this hobby in '95 back when there wasn't much on the net and had no computer or desire to use one so my experience is via LFS, in person with Julian Sprung and Albert Thiel in '96 both stating baking soda alone did not maintain buffing very well. Also, a Coral Life salt engineer and Aquacraft salt company said basically the same.

I would like to also say I came to Reef frontiers because it was a friendly forum; now twice out of the few posts I've made I get an aggressive/attaching response even if the poster both says it and denies it in one post. One of the things I don't like about forums is the overall behavior of people saying things they never would face to face.

So DON'T take it personally this is NOT an attack...

 

[reedman]

I would like to also say I came to Reef frontiers because it was a friendly forum; now twice out of the few posts I've made I get an aggressive/attaching response even if the poster both says it and denies it in one post. One of the things I don't like about forums is the overall behavior of people saying things they never would face to face.

This is why I am here too. I respect your knowledge and experience. I didn't mean to insult you or offend you. I just wanted to know where you got your information. I didn't think it was too much to ask where the data to back up a statement was.

If you ever meet me face-to-face you will note that I am a very straight forward person and don't mince words. I would say the things I said in print face-to-face and would mean it respectfully. I have never had someone react to one of my posts the way you have and always am careful to read my posts before I post them to ensure they are respectful.

Again, I am sorry you took offense to my post. Thank you for the further information that you posted. It's good information to have and include in our discussions.

Respectfully,
-Reed

 

[NaH2O]

my tap water is 40ppm or less

Wow, Craig...must be nice. Mine is at least 10X that. Usually highest is ~500 or so. This morning it was an all time low of 467ppm.

I think the use of baking soda is worth discussing, as I have not heard of ill effects/not lasting. That doesn't mean it isn't true. We are all trying to do what is best for the tank environment. Not everyone can afford analytical grade materials. Similar to using Pickling Lime instead of analytical grade kalkwasser. I will start another thread on this issue. I feel it is worth hearing from a chemist. IMO, chemistry is chemistry, whether or not you are in the hobby - the chemistry speaks for itself.

 

[NaH2O]

OK - I thought the baking soda discussion deserved its own thread, as I am very interested in the answer. Here is a link to the thread: Baking Soda in the Aquarium

 

[mojoreef]

Water dogs did the persons you talked to have any reasoning behind that statement?? I have not heard that before so it interests me. Is it that the alk is being used up and thus decreasing or is thier something more to what thier saying.

Mike

 

[MikeS]

The only concern I've run across when researching the subject of baking soda is the sodium. I posted the same in the new thread Nikki started. I honestly don't know enough about it to say one way or another. But I will say this, I wonder how baking soda differs from commercially available alkaline buffers? I can't find a list of ingredients on my bottle of Kent ProBuffer dKH, but in the "caution" part is says it contains "alkaline carbonate salts"....isn't sodium the main ingredient in salt compounds?

MikeS

 

[Witfull]

but you notice there is no mention of lasting effects unless it is used in combination with other ingredients.

this is a recipe for a cal/alk buffer and combined to dose,,,each compound performs a separate function,,,the A&H doesnt need the dowflake to boost alk,,nor does the dow need the A&H to boost calcium,,,etc.

Also I would like to add that the author of those articles has lot of educational theory he draws off and little experience in the hobby that shows, so I do take his posts very lightly.

chemistry is chemistry. and i try to listen more to someone that has a less vested interest, than someone trying to sell something. Dr.Cross hasnt had tanks his whole life and not the reason he got into chemistry, does this lessen the facts that are shared? there is always cause and effect thats the way everything works.

we welcome the exchange of ideas and thoughts and we may at times go head to head, thats the way life is, point/counter point.

If you ever meet me face-to-face you will note that I am a very straight forward person and don't mince words.

same here, at times i have been misunderstood, its hard to get the feel for what someone is saying between the words. but i will state my opinion and thoughts and if asked i will provide info as to how i have reached my conclusion.

 

[cwcross]

Since there was a bit of a tiff on this thread, I'm going to offer some advice. First, learning from each other is largely about debate. Debate equals confrontation. Confrontation does not necessitate rudeness. Some general guidelines I personally use, as my job is largely about fighting for resources without making others mad.

Don't get emotionally involved with one's own opinions or positions.

Know opinions from facts and reason from heresay.

Don't simply state opinions or heresay, ask whether they are valid, or offer reasons why you believe they are or aren't.

Always listen and don't react emotionally.

Don't try to "win", instead try to "resolve issues" or learn.


Anyway, a spirited and interesting discussion.
Collin

 

[Craig Manoukian]

Emotion, what emotion?

 

[WaterDogs]

Here is some info from a book I used to setup my first SW tank and also is in a nutshell what my other research has turned up.

The Marine Aquarium Reference, Systems and Invertebrates
Martin A. Moe, Jr.

Paraphrased:

“Commercially available buffers do more than just increase carbonate and bicarbonate; better buffers also adjust sodium, magnesium, borate, and potassium as well as add calcium; they protect against great high and low immediate swings in pH that may occur with addition of pure sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate. A specially prepared commercial buffer solution is strongly recommended for use reef tank systems.”

The best buffer on the market IMO is AquaCrafts "Buffer + dKH Generator" and the ingredients are listed on the bottle for those interested as follows:

Contents: Na HCO3, K CO3, C12H22Ca O14, Ca CO3, Mg CO3.

Dwaine

 

[cwcross]

Waterdogs. I also like aquacraft products. Please note that, as you pointed out, the ingredients are listed on the bottle, which is a good practice so you know what you are spending your money for. This appears to be a buffered and well balanced Alk booster. It contains no Borate, which is good. That being said. It is still not necessary. If one is doing timely waterchanges, the salt mixture itself will serve to keep things balanced appropriately. The only thing added by A&H is sodium, which could in principle get slightly out of balance with respect to the other metal cations. However, this effect will be negligable unless one never does water changes.

Sincerely...Collin

 

[Craig Manoukian]

So if we use a balanced salt and do adequate water changes, should we need to supplement?

 

[Witfull]

supplimenting is on a tank by tank basis, it all depends of what is being consumed by the biologic of the tank. if you have a high calcium demand reef (clams sps, with growth) then you will want to suppliment Ca and ALK, as these are in contant demand. water changes help replace trace elements that are very hard test for and only needed in small amounts. these shouldnt be dosed seperately due to lack of control of levels, and the effect it may (or maynot) have on a tank. (when i say tank, i am referiing to the chemistry of the water as well as inhabitants). lower demand tanks (LPS softies) have other issues that have to be addressed on a per tank basis (chemical warfare, nitrates)

there are many products on the market that im my humble opinion are worthless to purchase (i am not referring to any manufacturer, i refer to MOST) they can lead the inexperienced hobbyist to to more problems tha they cure. also the mark up on these items is astonomical (1000's %), and can be made at home for far far less than even the cost of the salt mixes for H2O changes.

as we learn and grow in the hobby we pick up tips and tricks that will save money, time, energy, and frustration.

 

[mojoreef]

Yea I would have to agree with Wit. Its kind of a quandry, whatever method you use when it comes to additives you end up out of balance eventually. If you do WC's alone for keeping your levels up and lets say the salt parameters were perfect, you would still end up low on what ever gets used by the tank. SO alk, cal and mag for sure, and in the same breath replenishing the other elements of SW that dont get used would increase and be out of level.
The same applies for two part additives over time. The best method for replenishing elements in your tank is by measureing and replenishing just those that get used up, but that can be time consuming. Since alk and cal are the two main elements that take a hit, the use of Kalk or calcium reactor seems to be the easies method. But then again it all depends on what you keep and what the demand is.
On the Aquacraft salt for cal, alk levels it is a good salt. But the very high levels of other ingredients scare me away. The two main ones being Iodine and lithium.
But that is just MHO

Mike