Skimming booster or fluxing agent ???

[TJL]

Hey, thought I'd throw out an advanced question for all you Chemists out there Pro and Amateur alike.

THE BIG QUESTION: Is there or have there been any studies on using a water additive to increase skimmer output in a positive way ??? Products like Melafix really ramp up skimate production but, do they actually pull more protiens out of the water column by way of a fluxing agent or just pull the additive (Melafix) itself ???

These plant extracts seem to be fairly reef-safe so is there any in particular that bond to protiens or any of the complex nitrogen molecules that could potentially be utilized safely to boost nutrient export in our skimmers of closed-system Marine Aquariums ???

Boomer, anybody ???

Cheers/Mahalo, Todd

 

[mojoreef]

Ozone baby Ozone!!!

 

[Myteemouse]

and vodka

 

[07FocusST]

I used Vertex Bio Pellets in place of Vodka now

 

[mojoreef]

Todd I would have to know the chemical make up of that product in order to give you a proper answer. YOu would need to know if the compound or compounds are Hydrophilic or hydrophobic or most likely amphipathic. These catagories will determine how the compounds interact with the air surface/water interface, its a complicated thing to exlain so I wont do that right now or it would look like one of Boomers 3 page replies, lol. A basic way to look at it is that organics (mostly bound to living critters such as bacteria and similar) take up the spaces between the bubbles, yes some protiens partially bind to the air/water interface but this is where they are in your skimmer. So in a skimmer you will see a mixing chamber (bubbles and air mixing together) then it will form into mostly air bubbles rising in the neck tube and finally the formation of foam. So the general concept (after the laws/principles are followed) is that the organics will rise out by being trapped between the bubbles/foam and drawn out.

So anyway one needs to know if the compounds are one of the above as that will dictate how easily they are drawn to the air/water interface and thus if they have the more probibility to be skimmed out. The reason I said ozone is that molecules that have reacted to ozone become more hydrophobic (non polar) and tend to readily absorb onto the air water interface.

Not sure if I made that more clear or muddied it up worse, lol


Mojo

 

[TJL]

Thanks Mike, that is the kind of answers I was hoping for. Get some of our brainiac members something to chew on then come up with some ideas the rest of us can take advantage of. I don't know if we could get actual ingredients to Melafix (probably proprietary ) but maybe a member here may have an educated guess as to what plant extracts they use. Anyway looking forward to seeing where this thread will lead.

Cheers, Todd

 

[Frankie]

Hey Todd,

KZ has a product that I have used called Zeozym that works very well for all systems running a skimmer. It binds detritus in the water column helping to bring it to the skimmer. They claim other things also but that is what I saw using it. One very notable result other then the skimate being darker was the water clarity in the display tank. I saw a huge change in clarity from using this. Keep in mind my water was very clear to begin with from my method of carbon use. I use Rox changed out every 4 weeks.


Frank

 

[TJL]

Hey Frank, thanks I'll check it out. Running a high bio-load mixed reef I definitely need a boost for my skimming to keep up with all the chemical warfare going on.

Cheers, Todd

 

[Scooterman]

Whew Mike watch your tongue with those big words lol! :mmph: So your saying that a product like some sort of surfactant that will not dissolve in water would work best?:drama:

 

[mojoreef]

So your saying that a product like some sort of surfactant that will not dissolve in water would work best

I dont know if that is the direction hobbists should be going. I think the basics of making the skimmer do what it is designed to do would be a better approach. Stuff like making sure that the dwell time with the water and air bubble mix is long enough, making sure the bubbles are very small to allow the protiens and such find the proper air/water interface and hold. Making sure that once the above is in place that the foam column has the ability to drive the mass up and over the lip into the cup where it can be drained out? Stuff like that should be everyones first task.

From their you can start to play with things like binding protiens to biologicals and then getting them out, so perhaps something like the use of a biolpellet and then concentrating on removing the flock?? I think if you start to skrew around with the water chemistry going in your going to get both positives and negatives and make it a little to complex. This is why I like Ozone as it breaks down alot of molecules into ones that a re very easy to skim out, that and the oxidizing it does already.


Mojo

 

[Scooterman]

I remember we talked about using ozone but some of the details at the time seems a little confusing as to just how it is added to your skimmer and how it works, also there was this safety issue? Let me see if I can dig that up. I do indeed remember that when used right, the water clarity was stunning, unlike anything else I've ever seen.

 

[mojoreef]

I am not trying to promote the use of ozone, just the concept of what it does, their are other things also that can work, but I think all are secondary to getting the skimmer right first. Yes ozone can be a great thing but MUST be monitored and rund correctly as it can do a lot of harm if not.

Mojo

 

[Scooterman]

Ok, after doing a search it seems that there is way more than I thought about using Ozone! So I'll post these to start with. Yea maybe getting into the skimmer proper operation may be best direction at this point.


Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 1: Chemistry and Biochemistry by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 2: Equipment and Safety by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 3: Changes in a Reef Aquarium upon Initiating Ozone by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

 

[Frankie]

Who IS this Randy Holmes Farley anyhow!!! LOL!

Good stuff Scooter. Thanks for the links. I was in the dark also for a while there until I read those. Actually Mikes explanation on the phone was the best I have gotten about it. Now if we can get him to type the way he talks were gonna learn a lot more I think:bolt:

 

[Boomer]

Todd

I have been away for the last 3 weeks with Sanjay and just got back yesterday.

Yes, there are studies on what we call Foaming Agents and even Defoaming Agents but not in this hobby or as applied to seawater. They are mostly for industrial application like for Floatation Cells, which are more or less skimmers, some like those I played with extra silica from the water in the Taconite mining industry. Skimmers work mostly on Hydrophobic Action, just like GAC does. Many years ago Aquatronics use to make a Foaming Agent for FW skimming. Many things can make the water foam, especially things like Stress Coat. However, the real question still remains, do they really remove more "wanted" organics or is it the foaming agent just getting removed.

As far as Melafix goes, it is the extracted oil from the Cajeput evergreen tree, Melaleuca alternifolia, from Australia and Indonesia usually but not always. It used for is both its anti-fungal and antibiotic properties and treatment for urinary, digestive infections and Aromatherapy. There are many species of Melaleuca and related trees.

 

[Scooterman]

When you guys say skimmer I think of what I do all day in the oilfield, we skim/crack/separate/compress and process the raw crude in so many ways it isn't funny. They use so many different things to get separation it is amazing! I've been in skimmers so big, that I can swim in, hanging 150ft. above the ocean!

 

[Boomer]

Good read

Protein Skimming: How It Works
Skimming by RHF