Surviving vs. Thriving

[NaH2O]

I post on the polyp extension thread sparked this. Growth equates to health, doesn't it? So how would you know if your inhabitants are only surviving or are they thriving? Is there a difference?

With corals I suppose you could look at typical growth rates in the natural environment and compare them to that of the captive environment. Even then, the two are not exactly the same, so how do you know whether your corals are thriving?

With fish, how would you determine survival vs. a thriving fish? Disease outbreaks, coloration, behaviour?

 

[DonW]

Depends on how in depth you want to go. In my opinion thriving in the wild is totally different than in the captive enviroment.
In the wild fish and corals propagate naturally as apposed the methods that we use to force propagation.
IMO if a species is to truely thrive it must reproduce naturally if not its just living.

Don

 

[bobgoode]

Don, excellent point of definition. For most of us SPS-keepers, we're ducky if our corals survive & grow. SPS reproduction is still rare & purely accidental in our systems. For now, we must be satisfied with encouraging coral growth & coloration to occur. Bob

 

[NaH2O]

hehehe...I love to get in depth and talk in circles

Great post, Don.

Good to see you on this thread, Bob, since you brought up the point about health .

So, if the SPS we keep are merely living.....is getting them to thrive something we should try to attain? Bob pointed out that SPS reproduction is rare and accidental in our systems - is a thriving coral possible? I could argue that some SPS pictures I have seen are so incredible - I would almost call them thriving. Could a reproductive event be small enough that we wouldn't know....and with heavy skimming the excess nutrients are picked up right away?

 

[bobgoode]

Nikki, with circular discussions, at least we know where we'll end:lol: Good question, possibly small spawning events do occur w/o notice[do I need another piece of reef equipment?...security video?] The documented spawns are accompanied with out-of-control skimming that we'd couldn't miss. I personally have never had that happen. You're probably right that skimming quickly removes the necessary ingredients that spark these events[pheromones, hormones, circidian light & who knows what else ] I wonder if open-sea systems have regular spawning events? Bob

 

[The R/C Man]

Hey guys!

Talking about just survival. While here in Okinawa I have been very disapointed with the fish stores and their "salt water" tanks. The fish never appear healthy and the corals are kept under inadequate lighting.

Yesterday I was in such a store and was looking at the many manderians they had on hand. None of which where fat as they should appear, and all had sunken bellies as though they are starving. Of course this species feed on pods and where kept in fish only tanks. I persuaded my wife to act as translator to explain to the employee what was going on and he kind of snickered as though I don`t know what I am talking about. Talk about frustrating.

I suppose to me thriving would be good coloration and steady growth be it a fish or coral. Using the above as an example, they are alive but not thriving.......

 

[mojoreef]

Good topic Nikki. It is really a tough question and hard to really know for sure. With reproduction on one hand you could say yes Reproduction couold be seen as a sign of good health with corals it is further down the energy budjet. But in saying that thier are certain conditions that need to be in play in order to trigger spawning events in regards to corals. So a Coral could be healthy and spawn or it could be in less the good health but have the right precursors available for spawning.
I used to have a moon light on my tank, and every time it would go on my urchins would spawn, this would trigger the clams and so on, it would literaly cloud the tank. It was hard to tell if the corals were also spwning as you couldnt see into the tank. I eventually took the moonlight off.


Mike

 

[NaH2O]

I also think of anemones that split in the tank environment. Some think that this is because the tank conditions are great.....but isn't it really because they are under stress? This would be one area where some would think the anemone is thriving...it is splitting.....but if it is stress induced, then the anemone would be surviving.

 

[Scooterman]

If this is true, then thriving fish would be fish that reproduced naturally in an aquarium? How often do corals reproduce in nature, how often do they reproduce in our glass boxes?

Other influences could be that they are so happy, not threatened, so the need to reproduce isn't a necessity?

 

[bobgoode]

Good points all, so let's recap what we discussed thus far: health=growth=happiness=surviving=stress=unhappiness=reproduction=thriving=health. Do I have this straight....or circular? Bob

 

[aquariumdebacle]

Calcification is the result of corals getting rid of calcium. Growth in corals does not equate to good health. They might be stressed by improper lighting and/or improper nutrient levels. Too much phosphate will show growth but with a weakened skeletal structure. Spawing corals in a closed system would not go unoticed and would polute any but the largest of systems. Spawing of fish/shrimps would probably go unoticed and be taken out of the system by the filtration system. The problem with most reprodsuctive events is that the grow-out period for the planktonic larvae is too long. They don't get enough food to survive and settle out of the water column. Larvae are moving through a medium that has the equivalent viscosity of molasses to us. If they have to expend more energy catching food than they take in: they aren't gonna make it.

 

[Curtswearing]

Calcification is the result of corals getting rid of calcium. Growth in corals does not equate to good health.

Good point....when we try to run our systems at abnormally high levels of calcium all we are doing is overworking our corals.

 

[bobgoode]

Interesting view. My take on this is that growth =health. Form follows function. That is to say, coral calcification is a by product of coral nutrition. As the coral skeleton grows, more coral animals can be produced, increasing it's survival rate. It's always about survival[reproduction]. Bob

 

[NaH2O]

Dan, that is true on the calcification, but what would happen to the coral if it was deprived of calcium? Would the coral be able to survive in it's absence? Perhaps we should think more along the lines of abnormal growth rates. Same as systems kept at high temperatures. The increased metabolic rate increases growth, but it also increases metabolic wastes and thus increases the chances of bleaching = unhealthy.

Bob, you have it straight = polyp extension = happy

 

[mojoreef]

Interesting view. My take on this is that growth =health. Form follows function. That is to say, coral calcification is a by product of coral nutrition. As the coral skeleton grows, more coral animals can be produced, increasing it's survival rate. It's always about survival[reproduction]. Bob

yes but that is a yes and no thing. Stoney type corals shed calcium in order to perform cellular division, the result is a skeliton. So in reality a coral that is subject to, to high levels of calcium is forced to work twice as hard in order to perform growth. thus the coral would be growing, but unhealthy at the same time.

polyp extension = happy .....God I hate that, lol..I owe you for that one


Mike

 

[bobgoode]

Yes, accelerated growth can not be sustained=unhappiness. SPS evolved in a low nutrient environment[NSW levels] Up the dKH, the excess carbonate availability overdrives the Ca active transport system[read:energy deficit] to a hyper-calcification state resulting in further zoox. energy deprivation & eventual zoox. shutdown[death]

 

[Scooterman]

Boy this is an old thread, thought we did this & I found it!!

 

[morgan]

any tank that has mixed amounts of corals have to compete with other corals and the coral is going to put more energy in to fighting then growing
a sps coral wont spawn if fragged for 6months a year unless it all ready has gonads form being wild caught but to my understanding a acro cant produce gonads untill it reaches a certain size nor can it spawn with out a lunar cycle coral bay spawns in march for 3 days after the full moon
if a coral shows good colourtaion steady growth which can go unoticed
intresting topic indeed thought i would throw my hat in the ring

 

[Ditchplains2]

I think this hobby is undergoing a new change or well a new beginning. I think we are all realizing that what we are striving for aesthetically, isn't necessarily what's healthiest or natural for the creatures we keep. I believe there are two approaches to this, one would be to try and strive for as close to a natural ecosystem in your tank, second is to try for the most aesthetically appealing. Often we end up I think with a mix. I think the technology is catching up, even the companies that produce our salt water mixes are realizing there is need for as close to NSW as possible and not just high levels of Calc. I think about those fringe reef systems I have seen in the past, some much more complex and yet simpler to maintain than a sterile sps tank. This is what inspires me!

Calfo in one of his books speaks about a night under a full moon when all of his Clams under went a spawning session realizing gametes and although fouling the tank, was a spectacular site. I think we can all learn from this event. I think what's most beautiful is not necessarily a sterile sps tank, but a tank that incorporates as much of the ecosystem your trying to replicate, even a specific zone or area.

Once we start creating environments that mimic the natural world, then we can have claim to the knowledge that our corals are thriving and not just surviving.