Tangs in trouble, help! (Pics coming soon)

[Taqpol]

I have been having planaria flatworm troubles for a few months now so yesterday I finally pulled the trigger on dosing my tank with Salifert Flatworm Exit. For two days before hand I siphoned out every visible flatworm I could see and yesterday at 6:00pm I added three capfuls (twice the recommended dose, standard practice for everyone I've talked too) of Flatworm Exit straight to my 120 gallon approximate system volume tank. Within five minutes the tank had literally turned red from floating, dead flatworms and a yellow chemical was settling down to the bottom. I immediately started skimming wet, ran a TLF reactor full of carbon, and started a ~15g water change, all while netting out/siphoning out as many flatworms as I could. All coral polyp extension shut down immediately, but most of it was back within six hours.

I woke up this morning and both tangs (Powder Blue and a Scopas) looked absolutely horrible. They were slowly swimming in circles in the middle of my tank, pectoral fins flapping, with their stress colors completely out. They refused to eat a any of their favorite nori or any other food. At this point I did another 5 gallon water change.

It is now 4:30, both fish are still floating behind the rockwork and under the overflow, they seem completely unresponsive and extremely pale. Both fish have dark color expanding backwards from behind their eyes.

I'm about to go run water tests but I fear they'll come back good as ALL my other fish (2x clowns, 3x chromis, tailspot blenny, watchmen goby, mandarin) are doing completely fine. I fear my water might have got deoxygenated due to all the flatworm die off, even though i had the overflow and the skimmer running the whole time.

Can I do anything to save my fish?

 

[returnofsid]

If the problem is a lack of, or low oxygen, the larger fish will show signs of distress first, which does seem to be the case. However, they'd usually be near the surface, breathing quickly. Lower oxygen levels will also push down the pH, so your tests would show a drop in pH.

You can get more oxygen into your water by doing more to disturb the water surface. Aim powerheads more towards the surface, to agitate it more.

The reason your water turned all foamy is probably because you left the skimmer on during treatment. Salifert FWE is known to make a skimmer go NUTS. It's usually a good idea to leave the skimmer pump running, but remove air tubing, so no air is introduced into the skimmer. This allows the FWE to circulate through the skimmer, killing any Flatwmorms that are in the skimmer. It also keeps the skimmer from actually skimming.

Your decision to run carbon and start water changes quickly afterwards, was a good one!!

Is it possible that there were a lot of flatworms remaining in the tank, prior to treatment? I do know that it's very hard to find them all, and it's typically thought that most people vastly under estimate the size of the population. Seems that there's even such a warning in the Salifert directions.

If you have a sump/fuge, and if you have any filter socks, it might help to add filter socks to the drain lines, use a powerhead to blow off ALL the rocks, getting into as many crevices as you can. This would stir up any detritus AND dead flatworms, allowing them to be collected by the filter socks, where they can be removed from the system.

IMO, increasing oxygenation, through surface disturbance, and the water changes that you're already doing, are your best bets.

 

[Taqpol]

Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrites: 0ppm
Nitrates: 0ppm
pH: 8.19

I didn't monitor my pH closely enough during the dosing, I quite likely could have had an oxygen depletion during that time, but I'm assuming the problem has corrected itself due to my ccurrent pH.

Is there anything I can do to help a fish that was the victim of low oxygenation after the fact?



Update: My PBT is upside down stuck against a rock, but its still breathing a little bit....

 

[ronj]

i would do some large water changes(at least 30g) ASAP and hope for the best

 

[Taqpol]

My PBT. He keeps "giving up" only to come back a minute or two later:

My scopas is the most energetic, and the most upright of the two. He does have the weird growing splotch that you can see in this picture, though:

 

[returnofsid]

All I could suggest is giving them very calm conditions and the best food and water quality possible. I don't know of any medications that would help, but you might try posting this in Lee's fish forum.

I'd probably dim the lights for a few days, to offer them more time to "rest." Make sure no other tank mates are harassing them...etc.

 

[1fishkeeper]

How much flatworm exit did you use? Also it could be the toxins that they let go when they die. I would also go for a large water change and run some carbon to help remove everything.

 

[Taqpol]

Three capfulls. 3.2 full capfulls is supposed to treat 240 gallons according to the packaging, I just doubled the recipe.

 

[Barbie]

Oh no! I'm so sorry to hear you're having such a problem with your treatment! You've basically already done everything I would recommend, at this point. I would have done a few bigger volume water changes early on, but I tend to panic like that. I definitely think you had low oxygen levels. Any time the water gets discolored with a flat worm treatment it's time for drastic action. Can you drop your tank temperature a couple degrees? That will also help the water carry more oxygen. At this point, the carbon and water changes are definitely going to be your best bet. I'm sorry you're having problems.

I don't think the double dose is the problem here, as I have used that regularly for years, but a big die off of the flatworms can definitely cause the symptoms you're seeing. I sure hope everything comes through it for you!

Barbie

 

[Taqpol]

Well, I tried my hardest. They're both dead.

I really thought at least the scopas would pull through....

 

[Slate]

Sorry to hear that man, not much you can do when they get to that point.

 

[alki]

 

[returnofsid]

That sucks Alex...sorry to hear that.

 

[Taqpol]

Thanks for all the support guys! its great to have a support group that will try their hardest for you at the drop of a hat. So far no flatworms, at least...

 

[leebca]

Sorry for the losses. Don't know if you really want my opinion now or not. So I'll be brief, but happy to expand on any point.

1. The 15g water change in a 120 wasn't near enough. I would have suggested an immediate 80% or higher water change.

2. These fishes (Tangs in general) are very sensitive to water quality. Not sure it was a good idea to take care of the worm problem with those fishes being in the tank. I would have recommended they be moved out.

3. I would not have recommended changing the treatment directions from the manufacturer directions.

4. During all this if the fish couldn't be moved out, I would have suggested monitoring the water for pH, temp., ammonia and nitrites every couple of hours and at any sign of problems, get the fish out or the medication out.

 

[Scooterman]

Sorry, I moved this thread here for Lee's advise.

 

[Taqpol]

I completely agree with all of these statements except number three. I have heard from many good sources that FE is too dilute at the recommended concentrations to completely eradicate the worms. Still, what I should have done was dose the tank once at the "normal" concentration and then wait awhile before nuking the survivors with a double dosage. I just had too many flatworms in the rocks that i could not see/get too.

I don't know why i thought my standard 15g water change would be enough, but I did manage to do a ten gallon all at once water change in the morning followed by another 15 gallon gradual water change that afternoon. Sadly it was too little too late. If I ever do this again (or if anyone else learns from my mistake) I will definitely have my 45 gallon brute garbage can filled with aged and temperature matched saltwater before I start.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Sorry to hear of your losses, dying pets are really tough!

As to fixing the problems so it doesn't happen again here are a few observations.
1. If the tank for whatever reason is so toxic fish are dying even after a massive water change, remove the fish.
Even into a clean and aerated large pail of fresh balanced salt water.

2. "Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrites: 0ppm
Nitrates: 0ppm"
You need to replace all these test kits. If your nutrients were high enough for a planaria explosion, they were high. And more to the point, if the medicine induced die-off was enough to sicken the fish, the nitrates and ammonia should have registered at the top of the scale.

3. I have run Salifort flatworm exit at double strength many times with no ill effect, I suspect the problem was insufficient dead flatworm removal and also that there was mediocre quality water to begin with prior to treatment. (see #2)

4. Do a massive water change again! AND SAVE THE REMAINING FISH.
A fish die off will exacerbate the already fragile conditions.

5. Do not add any more fish for at least a month (preferably 2) and figure out why nutrients built up so bad in the first place.

Sorry if any of this sounds harsh, I am a brutally honest type guy in matters of import :>)

Best with all and keep your chin up.

Mike

 

[Taqpol]

2. "Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrites: 0ppm
Nitrates: 0ppm"
You need to replace all these test kits. If your nutrients were high enough for a planaria explosion, they were high. And more to the point, if the medicine induced die-off was enough to sicken the fish, the nitrates and ammonia should have registered at the top of the scale.

It has always been my understanding that planaria are photosynthetic and thus their growth is not necessarily limited by running a low nutrient system. Also, I never had an explosion, they just grew and grew until it became an eyesore (I did not lose a single coral to planaria overgrowth).

While I can not say that my test kits aren't wrong (they are six months old), I am inclined to believe that my readings are accurate. I have some absolutely thriving colonies of SPS corals putting on nearly an inch of growth per month and I just starved out some nasty hair algae that came into my tank on some bad rock, neither of which can occur in the presence of high amounts of ammonia that stunts coral growth and feeds algae. I feed my fish appropriate amounts, top off and make water with an RO/DI machine producing 0 TDS, and do regular 15g water changes every two weeks.

While I know I am completely responsible for my fish's deaths, I feel that it is due to poor planning and underestimating the amount of planaria in my tank, not due to poor husbandry and a lack of understanding about my tank.

Sorry to snap out, especially as I know you are trying to help me out.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

It has always been my understanding that planaria are photosynthetic and thus their growth is not necessarily limited by running a low nutrient system. Also, I never had an explosion, they just grew and grew until it became an eyesore (I did not lose a single coral to planaria overgrowth).

While I can not say that my test kits aren't wrong (they are six months old), I am inclined to believe that my readings are accurate. I have some absolutely thriving colonies of SPS corals putting on nearly an inch of growth per month and I just starved out some nasty hair algae that came into my tank on some bad rock, neither of which can occur in the presence of high amounts of ammonia that stunts coral growth and feeds algae. I feed my fish appropriate amounts, top off and make water with an RO/DI machine producing 0 TDS, and do regular 15g water changes every two weeks.

While I know I am completely responsible for my fish's deaths, I feel that it is due to poor planning and underestimating the amount of planaria in my tank, not due to poor husbandry and a lack of understanding about my tank.

Sorry to snap out, especially as I know you are trying to help me out.

Do a Google search on Convolutriloba retrogemma.
Yes they hold some zooxanthellae (photosynthetic) they mostly rely on available nutrients and if they grew and grew and grew in population, they had plenty of available food. Perhaps in the sand or rock pores?

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=362
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pestflatwrmanthony.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/flatwormfaqs.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/flatworms.htm

If had hair algae and flatworms, what were they growing on?

Either way, sorry if I pushed any buttons.