The Plumbing and Water flow Workshop

[Wayupnorth]

Just when I think I am starting to understand some of this stuff something else totally confuses me. I think I need Mojo to make a trip to Northern British Columbia to help me set up my 190. Seriously!
OK - I have the tank and have purchased a hammerhead sequence pump and an ocean motions thingy. How many returns can I have? Just the 4 that come out of the om device?

 

[mojoreef]

How would the drilling differ if it was a glass aquarium? Is there a formula or anything to help you with hole placement so you don't break the tank? I'm also assuming the hole saw might be different?

Oh yea way different in many ways. The hole saw used is different as it has to be a metal diamond bit saw. Laying it out could be the same BUT you are very restricted to how many holes and where you place them. Personally when it come to glass it scares the heck out of me, so I tell folks to try to get it done in a shop. Also you have to approach the plan differently. heres an idea based on the plan we just did.
You can still accomplish the same exact flow pattern but you are forced to do so using many less holes. Actually I would suggest only 2, 1 for the in and one for the out. this just gets the plumbing inside the tank, from thier you can create the same manifolds and then use acrylic to cover the pipes, kinda like a false blind. But now in saying that thier are many ways to accomplish good flow and it is the plan of this workshop to explore as many concepts as we can.

Reed

Yep, I'll back off the head pressure loss... a bit

Pheeeww I hate getting technical with you engineers, usually a loosing battle. Thanks for the data! keep posting as we go

Skipper

Good Question Nikki!I was beginning to feel that AGA is getting obsolete because of new flow system

Cool lets do your situation next, why dont you lay out what you have for a tank and what you want it to be, also tell me what you already have and we can see if we can find you some alturnatives


Wayupnorth

I think I need Mojo to make a trip to Northern British Columbia to help me set up my 190. Seriously!

Hmm let me think? I am guessing Prince Rupert?? summer run of chinook on the Skeena?? maybe some time in the Kitamat?? Tiger prawns in the sound?? Hmmm the possiblities?? lol

OK - I have the tank and have purchased a hammerhead sequence pump and an ocean motions thingy. How many returns can I have? Just the 4 that come out of the om device?

Ok thier are a few ways of approaching this. The OM can becme an octopus at times but still can be an effective approach. Lets do that one after we screw up skippers tank

Mike

 

[Wayupnorth]

Not Prince Rupert - Fort St. John in NE BC. Tons of wildlife - great lake fishing - a side trip to Liard Hot Springs and the Canadian Northern Rockies described by some as the Serengeti of North America! PM me if you would seriously be interested! If not I am more than glad to wait to screw up my tank.

 

[reedman]

maybe some time in the Kitamat??

Now there's a fun town...logging, helicopters, a great greek restaurant, and hockey...who needs anything else. I love places that plan their work day around the hockey schedule

 

[Wayupnorth]

Some logging - mostly oil and gas tho - and lots of hockey - or talk of it anyway. Have tickets to next years world juniors that are being held in Vancouver (BC) at Christmas Reedman - you should check it out! Something like 20 games in 6 days!

Ruth

 

[Skipper J]

Ok Mike I'll give it a try!Though I have my handsful at this time in preparation for a house transfer. We might as well do the plan for my tank.What I have in mind is much like Vikki's Tank 60"x24"x24".For the CL pump I'm still looking for one that is available in my area.Iwakis are all over but from what I have read its kind of noisy for a living room set-up.

For this design I'm following your suggestion 1in 1out hole in the glass then distribution is via pipe hidden behind an acrylic false blind
One thing with this design is it will eat a valuable real estate on my tank.One reason why I'm contemplating on getting acrylic tank as well, but for now lets limit it with the AGA.

I have a limitation on the space of the width I can used, so how much clearance do I need at the back?Otherwise holes will come from the bottom which means a thicker glass is needed to accomodate a total of 6 holes.Kind of scary ha?

 

[Wayupnorth]

Woops there I go again - Sorry Skipper for getting this thread off track. It's hockey withdrawl I just know it. Back to tanks and flow and all that other good stuff!

 

[reedman]

Something like 20 games in 6 days!

DROOLING

I'll have to look into that. Thanks for the heads up.

And now back to the show...

 

[mojoreef]

Yea Skipper going inside as I discribed is going to swallow up some real eastate for sure. I figure about 4 inches off the back wall for sure on the interior and about the same on the back exterior.
Skipper we need to start from the begining, as do all folks approching a reef tank with the initical plumbing concept. SO What are you planning on keeping?? A high energy SPS reef top type tank?? or a lagoonal low energy tank?? do you want to have a sand or simular substraight? If so how thick??

MIke

 

[plack]

Some basic questions. ok now how do you know what is the proper flow rate too little or too much for a sump (not for a closed loop ) and seeing as that changes depending on the tank size is their a formula (like maybe the turnover in a sump should be 5 times the tank volume) and would it be slower or faster if it were a refegium again some guidlines how much and would heaters not work in a fast moving sump and be left in the main tank I guessed at all these but would like to know if they soud right

 

[mojoreef]

Great quesions Plack!!

ok now how do you know what is the proper flow rate too little or too much for a sump

I approach the sump return a little differently. For me the sump is a place for equipment and possibly a refugium or simular. You need to look at this as a non tank flow scenerio, its just a system that takes water out of the tank processes it, heats it and then return it to the system. Their are so many different types of sumps and sizes that I dont think a blanket formula could pertain. I think one way of looking at a formula would be to look at the aux. equipment attached and try to get a mark from that.
If the sump has a refugium its always going to be the more contact time the better, so in its case the slower the better, ut I dont think we can set a mark from it.
If you have a skimmer attached it could be said that any amount of water entering the sump that is less then the skimmer input would become in-efficient, so that could be a mark. Example if you had a skimmer with a 1000 gph input then you want the sump to run that much. It wouldnt be carved in stone but anything less would be in-effective from the skimmers point of view. This same train of thought can be used for a chiller and other form of equipment attached to the sump.

But again it all goes back to controling micro bubbles.


Mike

 

[Skipper J]

Ok!Mike!I'm going to the direction of high energy SPS reef top tank as you describe it!At the moment I have 30gal which I'm slowly filling up with colorful SPS.My 55gal with thin sand is having problems so I would go BB on the bigger tank besides I only have 24" in height.

Pretty tight on the width it will eat up space in our dining area.Any idea on plumbing going thru the bottom.At least I could probably negotiate additional 2" of width for the tank dimension.Or probably that addtion won't be notice by my wife.

Quite a challenge because of space limitation.The base height though will be 38".I was thinking 40 but it looks too tall for my stature :lol:

I would also be using my 55 as a sump.

 

[mojoreef]

Ok so we have a high energy reef that is going to be Tank 60"x24"x24" with no sand substraight. Now thier are many ways to approach this kind of a set up.
Opiton 1: Tunzies. You could use 4 tunzie units in this set up, they have controlers that would allow you to create good random flow and the would achiee what we are looking for. Down side is that you would have to deal with the electrical cords but you could build an acrylic tube to hide them. They are also bulky, but could be hidden in the rock work to a point. Also with only 4 out puts you will have more dead spots.

Option 2: would be a series of PH, with them you could attach them to a wave maker and get good randomizing flow and have more out puts. Again the downs are power cords and bulky units.

Option 3 would be to create a manifold system above the tank pointing down into it. this would allow for a closed loop system with multiple outputs and would lessen the drilling through the back of the tank. Cons would be that you have some piping on the top of the tank. and then piping running down the inside of the back of the tank.

Option 4 you could drill a few more holes and come in through the back of the tank and create a manifold in the tank to deliver multiple outputs using a closed loop system. Cons would again be piping on the inside of the tank.

Let me know



Mike

 

[Skipper J]

Lets cancel out Options 1&2 coz I could get an acrylic tank with price of Tunzies and PH would be a soar in the eyes Lets explore the possibilties of 3&4 :idea: Creating a manifold above the tank will not be a problem however the manifold going in the tank might affect the flow.I wouldn't mine drilling more holes as long as it is structurally safe.Piping inside the tank would only be until coralline algae covers them.Option 4 will be acceptable.

You have not comment on the bottom drilling so I assume this would be pushing the glass too far. :lol: Well for this I was thinking of having 2 back walls to sandwich the plumbing as well as protection for the any eventuality of lick on the bottom holes.Cons would be limited area to access plumbing.Real estate incursion I think would be a pill we have to swallow.

Just to let you know I was also thinking of the drain going directly to my 8"diameter skimmer in which the design will be on another thread on a later date. Thanks!

Joey

 

[plack]

But if you want hi flow doesn't the fact that it comes from the backside and has to go around the rocks reduce it alot I have not seen anyone run lockline around to the front side and thats where the corals are ?

 

[mattseattle]

there are many tanks that use the manifold method which has a perimeter of loc-lines around the top of the tank.

on my new tank the bottom ports will have extensions that push 1" OM OmniFlex ports out into the front of the rocks on the bottom. Hopefully they won't intrude too much on the looks of my tank.

Others just use loc-line and adjust around the rocks to create flow.

 

[mojoreef]

But if you want hi flow doesn't the fact that it comes from the backside and has to go around the rocks reduce it alot I have not seen anyone run lockline around to the front side and thats where the corals are ?

Sure it will reduce the flow to a point. But having the plumbing in the front of the tank is not very attractive. If you look at some of the first drawing I put up you can see that you use the walls of the tank to. The flow does not have to directly point at the corals, you can bounce flow of the sides and front glass no problem to get flow thier. The more inputs of flow you have will make it even better for coverage by doing this bouncing.


Matt

on my new tank the bottom ports will have extensions that push 1" OM OmniFlex ports out into the front of the rocks on the bottom. Hopefully they won't intrude too much on the looks of my tank.

Matt you dont really need to move the pipes closer to the corals, I dont think you will like that look for your tank. Flow can travel throught the tank with out having to be jacketed in a pipe.

MIke

 

[jlehigh]

Matt you dont really need to move the pipes closer to the corals, I dont think you will like that look for your tank. Flow can travel throught the tank with out having to be jacketed in a pipe.
MIke

This works even better if you add nozzles to the outlet creating more directed flow When using 3/4" locline nozzels I send flow across 4-5' of my tank. Without the nozzels you will get a wider distribution which is also desireable. Use a combination of directional, fan and no nozzels to get what you want.

 

[mattseattle]

thanks mike! yeah, that is true....i think i could get the same flow by just bouncing it off the tank walls or floor or something. would be less work and would look better not adding the extensions.

 

[reedman]

Here's one for you...I found out (by accident) that the best flow for behind my rocks resulting in an outlet near the top center (near back wall) pointing straight down. The flow is sufficient to blow everything from behind the rockwork out into the front or into the water column to be carried to the sump. This has been by far the best configuration I have found for keeping detritus out from behind my rocks...sometimes the simplest solutions are the best.