The Plumbing and Water flow Workshop

[mojoreef]

This works even better if you add nozzles to the outlet creating more directed flow When using 3/4" locline nozzels I send flow across 4-5' of my tank

Always to a point my friend, When you are sending water cross tank or across the bottom they are worth while for sure. When aiming at corals or LR you want a much softer flow. Remember your trying to give access to the corals for food (detritus) these creatures basically have to have the food hit them right in the smacker and then keep it thier while they try to capture it. Hard flow in this area can stop that completely.

Reed

I found out (by accident) that the best flow for behind my rocks resulting in an outlet near the top center (near back wall) pointing straight down.

That is exactly how I have my return pump working. It covers a pretty good area to.


Mike

 

[mojoreef]

Ok Skipper a quick plan for the glass tank over the top. You would have to drill an input hole for the closed loop pump, I didnt draw it in but place it using the rules were talked about. Basically the output of the pump would be 1 1/2 inch, take this pipe all the way to the top of the tank and then elbow over it. From here you would go into a manifold as we have draw up previously. I would suggest getting apeice of acrylic that would span between the overflows and sit on top of the tank. That way you can drill through it and mount it like you want. So the manifold would be a series of inline tee's with 90 elbows on the end. They would get reduced at the interface of the acrylic plate down to 3/4. I have drawn in 3 pipes that would go from the manifold down to about 6 inch off the bottom. on the end of them install an eductor to each end
eductor

This will greatly increase the waterflow coming out of these tubes. Pointing then straight down will allow the water flow to hit the bottom and spread from thier, as mentioned prior a great way to sweep the bottom. The final 2 out puts would come through the acrylic plate and then be attached to a Y fitting with lockline on each this should give you enough out puts to cover the tank.
Overall concept here is heavy bottom flow to sweep the waste to the front of the tank and then up the front wall, from here it would be mixed into the mid flow (2 outputs) and put further into play and up the water column, finally to the sump return flow which would direct the detritus and flow to the overflows.
front to back view

and then a quick top down view

Mike

 

[Skipper J]

:eek2: Like others before me Mike!All I can say is Wow!I never thought of directing the water down like your concept. This is going to be one exciting project.Ok let me make sure I understand your diagram right.First the overflow,we will be using a simple overflow as you describe 1 on the left and 1 on the right.The dotted lines in diagram 2 is the acrylic plate to cover up the plumbing between the overflows where in the plumbing will be reduce to 3/4 at this point going to the bottom and in the case of the lockline half way goes thru the acrylic Meaning the plate will not go all the way down the bottom of the tank but just enough to cover the piping or 6" off the bottom. :doubt:

For the input hole of the CL following your concept I will bore 2 holes at 1.5 inch diameter to reduce suction. Will this be ok?

Then what about the flow in the sump?Thanks!

Joey

 

[mojoreef]

The acrylic plate is not to hide the pipes. It is thier so you can drill through it and mount the manifold to it. So basically you would have the tee pointing down, inside the tee would bee a 1 1/2 male slip by 3/4 inch threaded female bushing. you would screw in a closed nipple (shown before). Now you take the manifold and mark where the closed nipple would hit the acrylic. Drill holes in this plate so that the nipples slide through. On the underside of the plate, on the two outputs that stay high you would screw on a threaded 3/4 inch coupling. That will hold the plate to the manifold tight. From thier you screw in a locline Y and then two outputs of locline to what you want. On the pipes that go all the way down you do the same thing but use a 3/4 coupling that is threaded on one side and slip on the other. From thier just slide in the pipe that goes to the bottom (I would glue it) at the end of these pipes put the same slip by thread coupling. Slip over the pipe and then screw in the eductors. If you put a 1 1/2 union just prior to the manifold it will allow you to remove the whole manifold system if you desire down the road.

For the inputs go ahead on the 2 inputs, just make sure they are where you can get to them and away from the corners/edges.

As per flow from the sump go back to the original posts and then place them high in the water colum so they take care of breaking your surface tension and direct detritus to the overflows.


Mike

 

[Skipper J]

The acrylic plate is not to hide the pipes. It is thier so you can drill through it and mount the manifold to it. Mike

This is what I thought at first but got confused somewhere

So basically you would have the tee pointing down, inside the tee would bee a 1 1/2 male slip by 3/4 inch threaded female bushing. you would screw in a closed nipple (shown before). Now you take the manifold and mark where the closed nipple would hit the acrylic. Drill holes in this plate so that the nipples slide through. On the underside of the plate, on the two outputs that stay high you would screw on a threaded 3/4 inch coupling. That will hold the plate to the manifold tight. From thier you screw in a locline Y and then two outputs of locline to what you want. On the pipes that go all the way down you do the same thing but use a 3/4 coupling that is threaded on one side and slip on the other. From thier just slide in the pipe that goes to the bottom (I would glue it) at the end of these pipes put the same slip by thread coupling. Slip over the pipe and then screw in the eductors. If you put a 1 1/2 union just prior to the manifold it will allow you to remove the whole manifold system if you desire down the road.Mike

I've got to have the part take photo of the assembly and show it to you before applying glue.

For the inputs go ahead on the 2 inputs, just make sure they are where you can get to them and away from the corners/edges. Mike

Great! Will do that!

As per flow from the sump go back to the original posts and then place them high in the water colum so they take care of breaking your surface tension and direct detritus to the overflows.
Mike

What about the overflow any guide that governs the dimension.For our project what would the dimension be? Will it be ok to go coast to coast overflow just like Vickie? Only for this the plumbing will have to go thru the CTC overflow box that will replace the acrylic plate mention above.

The Output pipe going to the sump on both sides of the overflow this will be 1.5 inches right?And the input to the tank do we used the same 3/4 inch?For the height of this intake with respect to the bottom where would it be best situated above the lockline or between lockline and the bottom outputs.?

Mike this is really a very thoughtful thread. If you get to let us understand the how you are coming out with your spectacular designs then it will help us come out with our own design. Thanks a lot!

 

[mojoreef]

What about the overflow any guide that governs the dimension.

Well thier is a formula for the size of the overflow box and the amount of flow that goes over it, but normally it doesnt come into play because you have to build it large enough to put a standpipe in and to be able to get your hand in thier. I am not sure how far your bracing would extend on top of the tank so let me know.

Will it be ok to go coast to coast overflow just like Vickie? Only for this the plumbing will have to go thru the CTC overflow box that will replace the acrylic plate mention above.

Sure you can do that no problem. You are just going to have to use BH's to go through the C to C. So make sure you overall demensions allow for that.

The Output pipe going to the sump on both sides of the overflow this will be 1.5 inches right?And the input to the tank do we used the same 3/4 inch?For the height of this intake with respect to the bottom where would it be best situated above the lockline or between lockline and the bottom outputs.?

Ok you lost me are we talking about the sump return now or still the closed loop?


MIke

 

[mojoreef]

OK Wayupnorth your turn. First lets look at the Ocean Motions unit. This unit is basically a box with a slow moving cam inside it. The box has several output ports in it and as the cam turns it moves the flow from one out put to another.

The speed of this works out to about 15 seconds of flow time for each output. This means we would be moving your whole pumps worth of flow through each outlet for 15 seconds and then moving on to the next. So if you take just one output from the OM unit and plumb it into the tank, you will be blowing that whole 5500 gph hammerhead worth of flow to that output. If the out put is less then a 1 1/2 into the tank you will kill the pumps flow, as in if you drill a 3/4 inch input into the tank your hammerhead will only produce around 2000gph at best. also the speed of the om works out to be about 15 seconds per output, making it more of an oscilator.
SO here are the choices. If you are going to use the OM 4 way and you only want to have the 4 outputs go into your tank, it would not make sence to use the hammerhead as you will just kill the flow from it as you reduce the inputs to 3/4 or 1 inch. If you go 1 1/2 inch all the way it would be to much of a blast. So best then to go with a pump that has a smaller output, say like a iwalkie (pressure) this way you dont kill the flow by reducing it.
Or the other option will be to continue to use the hammer head and the 4 way, but use multiple outputs off each outlet of the OM. this way you wouldnt loose to much flow fromm the pump.
Also thier are a few versions of the om, which one is yours??
Version 1 - has outlets running sequentially, (ie) 1, 2, 3 , 4.

Version 2 - will give a delayed sequence 1 & 2, 2 & 3, 3 & 4, 4 & 1

Version 3 - has them opposed,( ie) 1 & 3, 4 & 2, repeated


mike

 

[Skipper J]

Ok you lost me are we talking about the sump return now or still the closed loop?MIke

Sorry for the confusion here.Actually we are talking of both.

(The Output pipe going to the sump on both sides of the overflow this will be 1.5 inches right?)This we are talking about the sump return

(And the input to the tank do we used the same 3/4 inch?For the height of this intake with respect to the bottom where would it be best situated above the lockline or between lockline and the bottom outputs.? )This is about the CL

What should the rating(gph) be for the CL pump.I'm afraid I won't find the same ones you are using there but I'm sure I'll find a match.

I'll try to come up with the drawing and I'll get your comments for any revision.This will be on a later date though coz Im really behind with the wallpapering of the new house.I haven't both the material for my base yet.
Appreciate having the directions though with my tank as this will be next on my agenda.Many thanks!

Joey

 

[Wayupnorth]

All righty then! I am pretty sure that mine is the version 3. My tank is not drilled yet but as I understand it being an acrylic tank will not be that difficult (for someone other than me as I am pretty dyslectic (sp) when it comes to that kind of stuff) so would it not make sense to use the hammerhead as I already have it and just go with more outputs into the tank? Your going to have to be pretty patient with me Mike as I am really not very good with this plumbing stuff.
Thanks

 

[plack]

and on a tottaly different tank i have been given the option of a free pump 12oo gph and was thinking of doing the top of the tank premiter manifold thing with Ø.75" and 3 or 4 tees going down from the top of the tank only 2 things 1) it is a glass tank 55 gallons and 2) it is a submerrible pump.If I had enoughp cash hey I'd buy a different pump but this costs for me anyway almolst nothing so I may make the drain tubes out of two Ø1" lines or ? the pump is Ø.75" both in and out so ? why two bigger tubes then back into one smaller tube I am not sure about that and I guess I could Just put the motor underwater so it does not get too hot but wouldnt the stagnant water get hot over time anyway ? let me know how crazy this sounds ? Sorry if this dissapoints anyone as I am Thinking cheap not the best way always

 

[plack]

I was thinking of a different much cheaper approach but am unsure if it would work see if you can follow my description (this is not my strong point!!!) I am considering using one pump to go into a tank at 8 places the pump will have a manufacturer made splitter so that right out of the pump Ø1.5" gets split into eight Ø.75" tubes now on the way i would like to have four scwd used to make it more random and I have not thought through exactly how that could be done. If i combined two Ø.75" into the input of one swcd then had it switching between the two Ø.75 I would have the pump having different pressure rates at different times that might not be so good then again it might not be so bad and have similar to an oceans motion for the cost of 4 swcd devices one of which i already have. Please any thoughts on this is it crazy would it ruin an Amp master 4700 hp superaquasea pump ?

 

[plack]

And Finally I have seen at dentist and doctors offices Tanks that are drilled at the bottom and have water flowing straight up inside the tank . Funny thing is they were fish only with out live rock just some strange rocks with no purple coralline to be found BUT with 7-9 Very large fish in a 150 gallon and the white gravel like substrate was immaculate like someone cleaned it every day .I thought this was very impressive as the tank was viewable from all 4 sides and all equipment was in the hood or below could not see it all . Any idea if coming up from below would work better in a reef as you could come up through a pile of rocks( I am not sure if I remember how dangs tank works maybe he does it that way). Anyway this is another flow method up for discussion
Paul

 

[Scooterman]

Softer flow on LR & corals, this is where I just love the Tunze stream, it is so wide it will cover a large area or corals and rocks but aside the downfall of the object inside your display it isn't as good as a CL in several ways, for this reason I've added a CL with the Tunze. The stream will move water in a soft wide radius pattern, alternating from wide open to less than half power, which moves over corals and LR very nicely but to remove detritus & really push water the way a CL does it can't be compared, I think the combination of the two is quiet awesome. If anyone has both they would know what I mean by this, having a glass tank does limit your options but with careful planning it can be very efficient in flow, the stream also grows coralline easy very rapidly I don't think it takes away from the aesthetics of a good bed of beautiful corals.

 

[Wayupnorth]

I would really like to take advantage of the added flow that the hammerhead can deliver so if I am basically making this redundent by using the OM devise I can live with not using it at all.
I have been talked into (with assistance promised) drilling the acrylic tank myself for the closed loop and as stated at this point it is only drilled for the sump drain and return.

Ruth

 

[mojoreef]

Skipper

(The Output pipe going to the sump on both sides of the overflow this will be 1.5 inches right?)This we are talking about the sump return

It really depends on the pump. For drain line always try for 1 1/2 as they will handle all you can give. On the pump for the sump return I would suggest saving some money on this one as we just want to return the water to the tank. We are not counting on it for the over all flow plan. So pick a pump that pushes about a 1000gph and ypu should be fine. You can Y it into to return and then just dump it back in.

(And the input to the tank do we used the same 3/4 inch?For the height of this intake with respect to the bottom where would it be best situated above the lockline or between lockline and the bottom outputs.? )This is about the CL

3/4 is fine and you should try to make it flow onto the surface so you can use it for breaking the surface tension, that way you dont have to give up any CL flow to do that. As per how to return, you could even come up through the overflow box and then out the side of it. Make sure all of the locline is submerged or it will suck in air.

What should the rating(gph) be for the CL pump.

I would say at least 3000gph



Mike

 

[mojoreef]

Plack, three demirt points for posting three times in a row, lol

I would stay 3/4 all the way, both in and out and the manifold to. I dont see any advantage to going to a larger pipe. the size of the manifold will act as a resivoir anyways. Having the submersable out of the water is ok, not the best but is ok.

Please any thoughts on this is it crazy would it ruin an Amp master 4700 hp superaquasea pump ?

I dont think it would hurt the pump, but I dont like the idea of that eight way manifold coming off the pump. I would make your own, remember pvc is like legos for adults,lol. Also I think you would have to use so much piping and elbows you would just suck the flow out of that pump. Your concept would work but I think we need to tighten up the plumbing a bit more. Come out of the pump with 1 1/2 and bring it up to about a foot below the top edge of the tank (assuming your going over the top?) from thier go into a 1 1/2 manifold that spand the back of the tank you wish to cover. At four points use a tee and then reduce down to the size of the squid device and mount it directly to the manifold. From the top of the squids come out with the proper piping and then drop in where you wish.

Any idea if coming up from below would work better in a reef as you could come up through a pile of rocks

Sure it can be done, and in some cases you dont have much of a choice. BUT the cardinal rule is to try not to do this. Their are two main reasons. One is that the deeped the bh the more water pressure you put on the gasket, coming off the bottom of the tank gives the most. The second is trying to work on it if thier is a problem, the deeper you go in the tank would mean the more you would have to drain it if you had a problem, being on the bottom means the tank you have to come down. Again it can be done, but if thier is another way it is always best to explore them first.


Mike

 

[mojoreef]

Scottie

Softer flow on LR & corals, this is where I just love the Tunze stream

Agreed they can be a perfect fit for folks with glass tanks, a little on the pricy side but truely effective. I always suggest folks go with multipl small units of the bigger boys this way you get better coverage.

Wayupnorth
No problem Ruth we can walk you through it no problemo. I think I still have my free Canadien long distance hooked up.

I am pretty sure that mine is the version 3

Cool that will make it better as then we dont loose to much with 2 outputs going at the same time.

I would really like to take advantage of the added flow that the hammerhead can deliver so if I am basically making this redundent by using the OM devise I can live with not using it at all.

No Ruth its not redundant we just have to be creative. OM unit (even though not my fav) can turn out a great flow system for a tank. its just up to us to figure it out thats all. I will work up a plan for your tank tommorrow and try to get something cool for ya.


Mike

 

[mattseattle]

hey Mike - why is the OM unit not your fav? what are the negatives of it? and positives?

 

[Wayupnorth]

Awesome Mike! I am heading to Edmonton the week after next and would like to pick up the plumbing supplies that I need as we are pretty limited here in the boonies. I can probably get PVC no problem but bulkheads or just about anything else would be a stretch so if you can sort of give me a shopping list that would be great.

 

[mojoreef]

Matt

hey Mike - why is the OM unit not your fav? what are the negatives of it? and positives?

Few things I dont really like. One is that it only spends 15 seconds per output on the 4 way and 7.5 seconds per on the 8 way. This make the unit more of an oscilatior then a unit that is giving up randon flow. When folks go to the trouble and pain of implimenting such a dynamic flow source they are looking to mimic naturals wave flows and currents in thier tank. With this unit putting out an oscilating type of low you really dont get that. For me their are better ways.
Second is the orintation of the unit. having the unti being the shape of a cylinder and the outputs coming out of every side it make for to complicated system to plumb up. It can be done no problem but yoy have to be creative and use alot of elbows.
And finally the unit cost 3 hundred and change for the 4 way and 390 for the 8 way. You could go get a motorized ball valve and timer for that cost and end up with an industrial grade peice of equipment (3 million cycles I believe) and the timer you could set from anything from 3 seconds to 300 hours.

Thier are two things that need to happen to this unit for me to really start to like it. One is that it needs to be turned into a rectangle with one input on the bottom and 4 on top for the 4 way and second is that the motor needs to be able to have a timer control on it so you can slow down the rotation speed. Buts thats justmy opinion


Mike