The Sterile Tank method!

[Paul B]

This thread is totally confusing me so if I sound like I am confused, it is because I am.
I started my tank with completely sterile rock that I collected using SCUBA but in those days we did not use live rock so I bleached it before I carried it home on the plane. Then I acid washed it. Believe me it was sterile. I also used dry dolomite.
The tank was set up with just fish (1972) we diden't use coral then. The fish were not healthy and were very prone to ich and everything else.
Gradually I got smart and started adding rocks, water and fauna from the sea. I also add mud from the sea for the bacteria. (I just added some today)My fish just about always live for their natural lifespan and next year the tank will be 40 years old but it started sterile.

What about the issue that some have described as a "single bacteria" enviroment in hte sterile tank? This is where one bacteria eventually becomes dominnant, replacing all others and causing the bilogical filtration suffers.

I totally agree with this statement and feel that your tank will never reach old age if you do not add diverse bacteria from the sea. I don't mean 5 or 10 years old, I mean old.
I add it all the time and have been doing it since the seventees.
I have seen my sterile tank go from sickly and ich infested to dirtier but healthier, much healthier. Bacteria equates to health. There is never any ich infections in my tank and I do not have to quarantine. Many of the fish are breeding including Bangai's, pipefish, fire clowns and two types of gobies. I believe the bacteria I add is the reason for this.
A sterile tank of course can be started and kept healthy but I do not think it will last.
It is the bacteria that convert the nitrate in our tanks. Eventually we will end up with bacteria that may live and reproduce well but may not reduce nitrate as well as other types of bacteria. I never have to change water to reduce nitrates, I change some water but not for that reason. My diverse bacteria know their job. :badgrin:
I feel almost all of our tanks are already too sterile and all of them need bacterial diversity from the sea and it has to be supplimented all the time.
Sorry if this is not in line with this thread. If it is not, just ignore it and I will go away.

 

[jezzeaepi]

No I think you understand it just fine Paul. I dont get it either =\

 

[returnofsid]

I think it's meant to be a way to minimize the "bad" things that we don't want in our tank. By starting out "sterile," you're responsible for ANYTHING that ends up in your tank...because you put it in there. It's not to say that it's healthier or a better way. I do feel that it would be difficult to "seed" all of the beneficial bacterium that we want in our tanks. Especially difficult would be the multi species of beneficial bacterium. That's not to say it couldn't be done, or wouldn't work.

I do see an extreme benefit to opening up the pores in the rock by the use of muratic acid. I can see how this would greatly benefit the life forms that would eventually re-inhabit the rock. IMO, a middle ground might work great, such as using Muratic acid to open up all the rock and then seeding that rock with quality live rock. This process wouldn't be "sterile," but would make for some good quality live rock once the treated rock becomes "live rock."

 

[Scooterman]

You can seed sterile rock with whatever you want, Paul you started off like that & reason you explained, you didn't have the diversification as you do now, so your tank suffered. That is the whole point, you can limit what you want with a goal in mind, not necessary the looks or type tank you have, some people want a loaded sps tank & a few fish or whatever but very specific. If you start off the thread the reasoning for doing this in the first place is posted. Everyone has opinions, many people has had tanks succeed many years now, so that point is irrelevant to this thread. Seeding the rock the way you want it is the point!

 

[Paul B]

OK Scoot. I got it

 

[Scooterman]

OK Scoot. I got it

FYI my post wasn't meant to be offensive In anyway, so please don't take it that way. Doing this process to really bad rocks or severe situations as a last resort only, I'd never waste good money on rocks that are in quality shape.

 

[Myteemouse]

I'm gonna run in my new system a mix of "STERILE" rocks and some that have been in my sump for three months and one center piec I found at the LFS that is prolly 50lbs or so and it's been in there tank for months also!!
And Dry sand!!!
Well see how it goes??

 

[Paul B]

FYI my post wasn't meant to be offensive In anyway, so please don't take it that way

Scooter, do I look offended? I could never be offended on a fish site no matter what.
I also know that my methods are considered "wierd" but thats because I started my tank way before the internet and there was nothing to compare it to. Now, to me anyway, most reef tanks look very similar with very similar water treatment methods, no doubt because of the internet which to me is a relitively new creation. I think they invented the thing last tuesday, diden't they?
Anyway, I understand your idea about starting your tank sterile and then seeding it with whatever you want. I personally have done that as I said and would not do it again. It sounds great and logistically it is very easy and I feel you can of course do this, but as I said, you can never do better than what is already in the sea. There is much more good than bad naturally.
IMO you really need a real part of the sea in our artificial sea to have a long term, disease system.
With this sterile method, what are the "things" we are talking about seeding into the system?

 

[sikpupy]

If anyone wants to try it, I have 20+ lbs of what used to be live rock in a fabulous office nano - last week the heater failed and cooked the tank, zoas, corals, fishees... oooh, the pain (and the smell!) when I got in to work. Temp was almost boiling, so no chance of salvation or resuscitation. I was going to toss the rock, but hey, if someone wants to try this, you can pick it up in Kenmore.

I'd appreciate a bit of live sand in return to start up the new tank. I'm starting over, but don't want to boil or mess with the old. It's in a bucket outside, ready to go. Any takers?

Arg, if you were in VA I would have taken you up on that in a second. I LOVE to experiment!

How did this get from cooking rock to bacteria? Hmm, well, why not meet with the minds? cook the rock, clean the crud out of it and get some ocean water, done deal.

 

[returnofsid]

Water, itself, doesn't really contain much of the beneficial bacteria that we want. It lives on and in substrate, rock, coral, glass, equipment etc. This is the same reason that "seeding" a new tank with water from an established tank is pretty useless.

 

[Paul B]

It is useless unless you import rocks or sand. You are correct, water is fairly sterile

 

[sikpupy]

Hmm, I knew someone was going to say that. As soon as I posted, I was like, wait, I should have said sand. I did not realize I would get busted so fast. I was going to correct it but I said to myself “Eh, no one will really notice”.

Anyways, nothing to be confused about Paul, sometimes rocks just need to be cleaned for whatever reason. I want to do it to make sure whatever I get that comes from someone else’s tank does not pollute mine. As far as frags go, from other places, QT would help minimize any transfer as well as my skimmer pulling any floating debris out. Dont get me wrong, if I could get some "clean" rock from the ocean for $2lb, yes, you are 100% correct, that would be the way to go. We can not duplicate the great sea the way it should be. With the ocean in someone’s box for 5 years, there is no telling what and how much crud is/has built up on the rocks. I hope this thread does not go to bacteria vs non bacteria thread as that’s a whole other subject. I would hope that those doing this already know about bacteria and the importance of having a good diversity of it. This thread is just about "cleaning" the rock.

I hear 10:1 (10 water/1 muriatric acid) is a good mixture, but, I also hear there are different %'s of muriatric concentrations too. I don’t know if the 10:1 was for the 3x% or...??? Can anyone chime in and give us an idea what percentage of mix to use with a certain % of concentration in a store bottle? I am sure any would "eat" the rock, but I am looking for a good mix that will eat just a little. You know, not too little, not too much, juuuuuuuuuuuust right, lol.

Also, I am curious if someone hosed thier tank with copper, how well would the acid disolve the attached copper and could the copper also be removed with this method, along with the other crud, a 2 fold deal if you will.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

You make some great points, it is often forgotten that what we do in a glass box has very little in common with the ocean. Yes we try to duplicate as much as possible, but that is similar to attempting to duplicate a parrots needs in a cage.

In the old days, copper treatments were fairly common and all LFS ran copper in their fish systems. Copper is HCL soluble, but the rock is almost as soluble. Each rinse would still leave part of the copper behind You would have to use so much that it would dissolve all the rock too :>)

Once in a tank, it will leach for months/years. I have tried resin bags, but also a waste of resources. Best to sell the copper rocks to a FOWLER owner and start fresh.

Fun discussion, glad it was kept friendly

 

[sikpupy]

In the old days, copper treatments were fairly common and all LFS ran copper in their fish systems. Copper is HCL soluble, but the rock is almost as soluble. Each rinse would still leave part of the copper behind You would have to use so much that it would dissolve all the rock too :>)

Once in a tank, it will leach for months/years. I have tried resin bags, but also a waste of resources. Best to sell the copper rocks to a FOWLER owner and start fresh.

Would you be able to detect the leaching copper with any test strips? Albiet maybe a little too late, but, if I buy some unknown rocks and soak them in water, how long would it take for the copper to show up in a test? Whats the best tester to use?

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Need to use the kit that matches the type copper used. I would never risk any invertebrate nor coral with any copper treated rock. The amount that is poisonous (not necessarily fatal) is below what will read on many test kits.

 

[sikpupy]

Need to use the kit that matches the type copper used. I would never risk any invertebrate nor coral with any copper treated rock. The amount that is poisonous (not necessarily fatal) is below what will read on many test kits.

That was what I was reading but was not sure, you know, the one opinion wonder and all. Also, thats why I wanted to cook it in muriatric acid to get rid of it, but, if it stays in there WTF?? Hmm, I dont think I will be buying rock from anyone other than a p[lace like bulkreefsupply.com or something, if they ever get any more rock in that is.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

I used to import rock, but prefer buying it from trustworthy members of the community. Often higher than from LA, but I know what I am getting.

Good luck pal, nobody said this hobby was easy.
If it was, everybody would be doing it. :>)

 

[sikpupy]

I used to import rock, but prefer buying it from trustworthy members of the community. Often higher than from LA, but I know what I am getting.

Good luck pal, nobody said this hobby was easy.
If it was, everybody would be doing it. :>)

Thanks, i will need it. Seems i am getting burned by the best of them, but, savy enough to clean up the mess and still come out on top. With copper that can be in the rocks, there is no way to see before buying and seems not much you can do to fix it if everything in the tank starts going south for no reason.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Do you have evidence that your rock was exposed to copper?

 

[sikpupy]

Do you have evidence that your rock was exposed to copper?

Thats the thing, I have not got any yet. If I go to someones house to pick some up, I am sure they will not say "oh, and it is loaded with copper". It will be caveat emptor, and there is no way to know for sure.