time to drain the tanks and call it quits
- Thread starter ngreenaway
- Start date
Help Support Reef Aquarium & Tank Building Forum:
kpiotrowski
Kevin
you have more than one salt tank right? if so do an ammonia test on both and compare color change to both.
api is not good for trace amount of ammonia or nitrate, although apears to be some in the pic. I'm ok with api for quick ca, and alk readings and when cycling a tank cuz they are inexspensive.
api is not good for trace amount of ammonia or nitrate, although apears to be some in the pic. I'm ok with api for quick ca, and alk readings and when cycling a tank cuz they are inexspensive.
kpiotrowski
Kevin
also, post the specifics on the tube of silcone. where did you buy it? you can't buy aquarium safe at most hardware stores.
ngreenaway
Well-known member
After the algacide debacle I've been a bit gunshy about adding stuff to the tank, though at the same time, when you see fish entrusted to your care in distress it's hard to let the tank just do its thing. If you think it's a good idea to use that stuff I'll go pick some up first thing tomorrow. I did a partial water change tonight but I don't think a 20% water change will have a significant effect anyway, so anything that will help it out would be good. Is there any recommendation of one over the other? What about seachem stability? I don't want to rush the tank but then again, I don't want to continue subjecting the fish to undue stress
ngreenaway
Well-known member
I'm not a fan of the api tests myself, as I've noted ammonia in freshly mixed salt water although the RO tested clean.
I have hanna checkers on the way, but somehow Amazon sent them ups but the post office has them and is expecting me to pay up duplicate postage - I don't think so
Prime, amquel, any kind of ammonia removal, I don't care brand... the only time you do need to care is if you are treating with something, then you have to watch for what can mix with what without becoming a problem. I used to know, but its been a long time, and other things have used up that spot in my brain. Google will be happy to tell you. I always have some on hand, because there can only be so much water, and once you are out (and you've likely removed anything you were using to treat with by doing the water changes) it can fill the gap until there is more.
I'm with kpiotrowski (and who ever posted the question first) on the silicone,though and the API tests. At this point the sump seems to be the commonality. So, lets focus there. Silicone is one thing, what about the plumbing for it? Anything odd about that?
Another thing to consider is that it has absolutely nothing to do with your actions, and that there is a 'recurring' type disease in the tank. Ich for example has a regular cycle that it follows that I think we all assume you would recognize and note. If you aren't experienced or knowledgeable on the subject, now would be a good time to try to read up on that and see if there is anything you can identify in what is going on.
Part of the problem with trying to help here is that I don't feel like we have a full picture even though you've tried to explain it, and the time between posts makes it hard to keep it straight.
Maybe the next step is to run back through the questions asked, and summarize your answers.. short and sweet so there isn't any confusion. I read enough threads that its hard to keep who/what straight especially when I really don't have the time to read back through... It sounds like you are trying to do everything right, and it sucks not being able to pinpoint the problem.
Tank size:
Sump size:
Time running (tank):
Amount of rock (lets assume its all live now):
Skimmer (currently running, if both, note that):
Lighting:
Current livestock:
Livestock lost:
Current test results
Ammonia: test kit used:
Nitrite: test kit used:
Nitrate: test kit used:
Last water change and volume:
Silicone name/brand:
Current symptoms:
Latest actions taken:
I'm with kpiotrowski (and who ever posted the question first) on the silicone,though and the API tests. At this point the sump seems to be the commonality. So, lets focus there. Silicone is one thing, what about the plumbing for it? Anything odd about that?
Another thing to consider is that it has absolutely nothing to do with your actions, and that there is a 'recurring' type disease in the tank. Ich for example has a regular cycle that it follows that I think we all assume you would recognize and note. If you aren't experienced or knowledgeable on the subject, now would be a good time to try to read up on that and see if there is anything you can identify in what is going on.
Part of the problem with trying to help here is that I don't feel like we have a full picture even though you've tried to explain it, and the time between posts makes it hard to keep it straight.
Maybe the next step is to run back through the questions asked, and summarize your answers.. short and sweet so there isn't any confusion. I read enough threads that its hard to keep who/what straight especially when I really don't have the time to read back through... It sounds like you are trying to do everything right, and it sucks not being able to pinpoint the problem.
Tank size:
Sump size:
Time running (tank):
Amount of rock (lets assume its all live now):
Skimmer (currently running, if both, note that):
Lighting:
Current livestock:
Livestock lost:
Current test results
Ammonia: test kit used:
Nitrite: test kit used:
Nitrate: test kit used:
Last water change and volume:
Silicone name/brand:
Current symptoms:
Latest actions taken:
ngreenaway
Well-known member
sorry, my computer access has been somewhat spotty in the past week or so, but here goes:
Tank size:
Sump size: 55g (tank size, 30g of water in it)
Time running (tank): about 1 yr, though when I moved a month ago, all was torn down for a few weeks. some of the live rock was preserved, some allowed to dry out. its been back up and running for 1 1/2 months
Amount of rock (lets assume its all live now):if I had to guess, between the tank and sump about 60 lbs or so...maybe more, not a good judge. it fills a significant portion of the tank
Skimmer (currently running, if both, note that): cadlights tia-1220 (I believe that's the model) in the sump, an aquac remora as backup when the sump is shut off from the tank
Lighting: a pair of d-120 fixtures from barrier reef, a pair of led spotlights - don't know the brand, its a somewhat purple/white spectrum
Current livestock: 4xbar gobies, starry blenny, watchman gobie, 2x occellaris , 2x purple firefish, 5" blue tang
Livestock lost: juvie lavender tang, flame angel, coral beauty
Current test results
Ammonia: test kit used: .5 (api) (this figure maybe lower today, I have don't two 20% water changes over the past few days and added 5ml of prime)
Nitrite: test kit used: 0 (api)
Nitrate: test kit used: 0 (api)
Last water change and volume: yesterday, 25 gal, day before 20 gal
Silicone name/brand: GE clear for doors+windows (I believe this is ge II - it releases ammonia when it cures rather than acetic acid, but my sump didnt go online till 3 days after gluing)
(this silicone is not mold&mildew resistant)
Current symptoms: elevated ammonia. general distress in the tank (my few palys and leather frag are closed up). previously I had used an algaecide-fauna marin ultra algaex- for 6 days (3x treatments) the final treatment was on the day everything seemed to fall apart
Latest actions taken: WCs, isolated the sump once again from the tank.
Tank size:
Sump size: 55g (tank size, 30g of water in it)
Time running (tank): about 1 yr, though when I moved a month ago, all was torn down for a few weeks. some of the live rock was preserved, some allowed to dry out. its been back up and running for 1 1/2 months
Amount of rock (lets assume its all live now):if I had to guess, between the tank and sump about 60 lbs or so...maybe more, not a good judge. it fills a significant portion of the tank
Skimmer (currently running, if both, note that): cadlights tia-1220 (I believe that's the model) in the sump, an aquac remora as backup when the sump is shut off from the tank
Lighting: a pair of d-120 fixtures from barrier reef, a pair of led spotlights - don't know the brand, its a somewhat purple/white spectrum
Current livestock: 4xbar gobies, starry blenny, watchman gobie, 2x occellaris , 2x purple firefish, 5" blue tang
Livestock lost: juvie lavender tang, flame angel, coral beauty
Current test results
Ammonia: test kit used: .5 (api) (this figure maybe lower today, I have don't two 20% water changes over the past few days and added 5ml of prime)
Nitrite: test kit used: 0 (api)
Nitrate: test kit used: 0 (api)
Last water change and volume: yesterday, 25 gal, day before 20 gal
Silicone name/brand: GE clear for doors+windows (I believe this is ge II - it releases ammonia when it cures rather than acetic acid, but my sump didnt go online till 3 days after gluing)
(this silicone is not mold&mildew resistant)
Current symptoms: elevated ammonia. general distress in the tank (my few palys and leather frag are closed up). previously I had used an algaecide-fauna marin ultra algaex- for 6 days (3x treatments) the final treatment was on the day everything seemed to fall apart
Latest actions taken: WCs, isolated the sump once again from the tank.
ngreenaway
Well-known member
currently the blue tang is experiencing ich. I believe the problems in the tank have compromised its immune system. every so often it would get a few spots (in the year we've had it) but none of the other fish have ever caught it. this time it has far more spots than ever before. its appetite is still as strong as ever. whats the recommended treatment:
separate into a quarantine tank or treat in place?
medicate, or let the problem run its course?
ive heard people mention using seachem vitality if the fish still has an appetite
if in a quarantine, whats the recommended treatment, copper? I have a bottle of aquarium solutions ich-x which I have used on freshwater fish and it worked (I know , marine ich is different, but it touts itself as effective against both fresh water and marine ich)
separate into a quarantine tank or treat in place?
medicate, or let the problem run its course?
ive heard people mention using seachem vitality if the fish still has an appetite
if in a quarantine, whats the recommended treatment, copper? I have a bottle of aquarium solutions ich-x which I have used on freshwater fish and it worked (I know , marine ich is different, but it touts itself as effective against both fresh water and marine ich)
Adding ICH as an afterthought is kind of sad as sick fish to start out means that it doesn't take much for additional problems to be much larger than they might have been.
I'm hardcore on ich and don't in any way believe it is in every tank. Opinions differ and I won't argue them, as I have as little proof for what I believe as someone who believes the opposite. All posted from here on out is my opinion (as with anything I post really, but I won't defend it or fight on ich if/when someone disagrees. This can be a hot topic, and I just want to make clear that I don't want to engage in an argument)
If they were my fish, I'd pull them all to QT and treat. Tangs can be fussy about copper, so I'd look at hypo, tank transfer, or cholorquine phosphate. Your tank has ich, not your fish, and while you may not see signs of it on the others, it is likely in their gills, causing your current problems to be exasperated. Your tank will need fallowed for 11 weeks or so to cure it, and that would give you an opportunity to experiment with the sump (I don't know that silicone) without causing further issues with the fish (corals are another story)
Reef safe ich cures are snake oil (again, my opinion), and the garlic folks should read the studies about terrestrial lipids causing liver damage when used for extended periods (opinion)
I'm hardcore on ich and don't in any way believe it is in every tank. Opinions differ and I won't argue them, as I have as little proof for what I believe as someone who believes the opposite. All posted from here on out is my opinion (as with anything I post really, but I won't defend it or fight on ich if/when someone disagrees. This can be a hot topic, and I just want to make clear that I don't want to engage in an argument)
If they were my fish, I'd pull them all to QT and treat. Tangs can be fussy about copper, so I'd look at hypo, tank transfer, or cholorquine phosphate. Your tank has ich, not your fish, and while you may not see signs of it on the others, it is likely in their gills, causing your current problems to be exasperated. Your tank will need fallowed for 11 weeks or so to cure it, and that would give you an opportunity to experiment with the sump (I don't know that silicone) without causing further issues with the fish (corals are another story)
Reef safe ich cures are snake oil (again, my opinion), and the garlic folks should read the studies about terrestrial lipids causing liver damage when used for extended periods (opinion)
kpiotrowski
Kevin
Wrong silicone. like I said before you can't get the aquarium safe at big chain hardware stores in general. when I get a hold of a buddy later I will ask where he buys his.
Blue Lip
Well-known member
You should treat all fish in a QT tank if you have ich. Ich needs a host to continue its life cycle. You can rid your tank of ich by having no fish. There are a few ways to treat fish in a QT tank that won't work in your main tank.
ngreenaway
Well-known member
it wasn't so much an afterthought as it was separating one distinct problem from a response to a previous post, and as I was typing it I wasn't entirely sure whether I wanted to keep it contained to this thread, or begin a new thread specifically to this fish's treatment.
as for garlic, im with you, for different reasons, but from my experience with freshwater fish I really don't believe garlic has any place in an aquarium
do you know of a local source of cholorquine phosphate? I can find it all day long at $200/kilo, but I don't think ive gone through a kilo of aquarium pharmaceuticals, collectively, in my life. is it offered under a different name? I specify local, because if I order online, there still is that lag time the fish is going untreated until it arrives
as for setting up a QT, I do have a 46 gallon tank, a 30, and a 15 ..so I have room to keep all the fish for the time being, but of course all those tanks are empty glass boxes. how do you folks handle the lack of any sort of biofilter? daily water changes to each of the QTs?
krisfal
Well-known member
I just did a quick look-up on GE Silicone II and I think it does have a mildew inhibitor. I know there is a type you can get at the hardware store but it is not easy to find, I know I used to spend a long time reading all the different tubes to find it and only certain stores carried it.
this is what you got I think http://www.grainger.com/product/GE-Sealant-3LA50
Look at the characteristics.
With the quick onset after putting the sump on-line I would suspect this is the issue.
Now that you are dealing with Ich My suggestion would be to move all fish to quarantine and treat with hyposalinity (my preference) or copper, move the coral out and replace the baffles with an aquarium safe sealant, let it set up several days and then put the sump back on-line and let it run and re-build the biofilter, do waterchanges etc (it needs to sit fallow for 6-8 weeks to get rid of the ich anyway) then it should be ready once you are done with the ich treatment.
this is what you got I think http://www.grainger.com/product/GE-Sealant-3LA50
Look at the characteristics.
With the quick onset after putting the sump on-line I would suspect this is the issue.
Now that you are dealing with Ich My suggestion would be to move all fish to quarantine and treat with hyposalinity (my preference) or copper, move the coral out and replace the baffles with an aquarium safe sealant, let it set up several days and then put the sump back on-line and let it run and re-build the biofilter, do waterchanges etc (it needs to sit fallow for 6-8 weeks to get rid of the ich anyway) then it should be ready once you are done with the ich treatment.
mfinn
Surgeonfish
If you need to use silicone, stay away from the box stores. More people get in trouble than get the right stuff, if there is any.
http://www.amazon.com/All-Glass-Aquarium-AAG65010-10-3-Ounce/dp/B0002ASD34
http://www.grainger.com/search?searchQuery=momentive+rtv+108
http://www.amazon.com/All-Glass-Aquarium-AAG65010-10-3-Ounce/dp/B0002ASD34
http://www.grainger.com/search?searchQuery=momentive+rtv+108
NanaReefer
Well-known member
You talkin bout me Willis?! Lol
mfinn
Surgeonfish
Not you in particular.
I just see a lot of people get in trouble when they think they can save a buck going to the box stores.
I will price check everything all over the internet, but there are a few things I won't take changes with.
It sounds like you are getting some good advise. I did not see oxygen depletion shock mentioned anywhere.
From the Algae X Manual:
"it is important to keep regular checks on oxygen level of tank while dosing to avoid oxygen depletion shock especially associated with tang species and other species which need a high oxygen level"
I used a similar product and lost my Sailfin tang and male clown. My tank pulled threw after a few days and a couple of water changes. I am positive it was oxygen depletion. I felt so stupid and I have been in this hobby for 15+ years.
Hang in there!
From the Algae X Manual:
"it is important to keep regular checks on oxygen level of tank while dosing to avoid oxygen depletion shock especially associated with tang species and other species which need a high oxygen level"
I used a similar product and lost my Sailfin tang and male clown. My tank pulled threw after a few days and a couple of water changes. I am positive it was oxygen depletion. I felt so stupid and I have been in this hobby for 15+ years.
Hang in there!
