using a Plenum in a aquarium

[xfisher]

Since the hair is always in the water due to die off and a blue cheek goby that picks it off the rocks but not to consume it but in search for other stuff he finds on the rock,if I don't aggressively remove it ,it fouls my overflow screen faster than I can keep up which then starves the sump return pump.Nasty stuff

 

[xfisher]

The cause/causes

Well, I think to really get to the cause of your problem it will take a through break down, finding the actual cause or causes then solutions. What your doing is all good but sometimes even all that a you still could be stuck with a problem. I've used plenum's in FW & succeeded years with no issues, I like them but as mentioned proper husbandry is key but this doesn't sound like the only problem in this case.

Your probably right along w/vacuuming algae i also vacuumed a lot of settled detrius from the top level of the phleum and the 1.5" sandbed in the show tank i used a gravel cleaner on the inside sb water relinshment 25%

 

[xfisher]

the problem in this case is hair algae out the wahoo

Well, I think to really get to the cause of your problem it will take a through break down, finding the actual cause or causes then solutions. What your doing is all good but sometimes even all that a you still could be stuck with a problem. I've used plenum's in FW & succeeded years with no issues, I like them but as mentioned proper husbandry is key but this doesn't sound like the only problem in this case.

After talking w/ the fish store pro he recomended buying a foxface tang which i'ved added,also he suggested i vacuum the algae out w/3/8 inch tubing into a filter sock then re-add the water to the tank no water change which worked really well i was vacuuming algae for seven hours,i left my vortex pumps run to keep circ. going and my skimmer was running to add circ and oxygen to the phelum.I removed 2 full filter socks of hair algae.The kicker I found the algae food source it was def. the phelum,I found several sections 3 inches thick cemented together and the vacuuming the top layer of detritus was nothing this phelun was loaded up beyond belief with it.It was in operation for almost a year that a diaster.It's gone from my set-up and I do'nt mind the water changes to do the job my phelum failed at which supposely is nitrate removal.It's only been 3days since I removed it and my corals are fuzzier than ever.

 

[Paul B]

As for the original question, i have a plenum of sorts. Actually it's a RUGF but it is run very slow. You can stop laughing now if your system is older :lol:

I can't really call it a UG filter because it is run so slow and of course it is not really a plenum because there is some flow. I guess I don't know what to call it.
It has been running continousely since 1972. I have no nitrates and presently no algae but I do get cycles of that which is normal in an old healthy tank.
Lee Chin Eng was mentioned but as successful as he was, his system really does not count. His tanks were outside at the sea's edge. He used NSW every day and sunlight. He could replace his livestock whenever he wanted to by collecting a few feet away from his tanks.
His aquaintance Robert Straughn was really the Father of salt water fish keeping and he did it in the fiftees. (I still have his book) He also invented the UG filter but his idea on how it worked was incorrect.
Sprung and Delbeek were mentioned, both smart men, I remember when they started in the hobby.
Bob Goemans is a friend of mine. He has been to my home and mentioned my tank in a few of his articles. He lives in Arizona and I am in NY so I don't see him much but we E mail once in a while.
Anyway, it seems that all of the methods of reef keeping work and even none of them (BB tank) work. My theory is that the substrait is not really that important in the scheme of things. Some people just can't keep things alive no matter what they do and others can keep fish for twenty years in a goldfish bowl
I don't know much about DSB's except they are fairly new, to me anyway.
I personally can't see how they will work for many years because of physics.
But obviousely they do work. I think my RUGF works because I can occasionally stir it up and suck out the "stuff" with a diatom. I think this needs to be done. It happens on all reefs and it is a very violent event. If you do much diving you will see corals that obviousely weigh tons toppled over with one side dead. I have seen elkhorn corals toppled in such a way and elkhorns have very think bases. I have seen sea fans far up on the beach, ripped from the rock and pushed high over the road.
These events happen all the time in the sea and in my tank as I agressively blow stuff around.
I really think that this is important to a confined tank.
So to answer the original question, yes plenums can and do work.
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[xfisher]

they are not worth the trouble

As for the original question, i have a plenum of sorts. Actually it's a RUGF but it is run very slow. You can stop laughing now if your system is older :lol:

I can't really call it a UG filter because it is run so slow and of course it is not really a plenum because there is some flow. I guess I don't know what to call it.
It has been running continousely since 1972. I have no nitrates and presently no algae but I do get cycles of that which is normal in an old healthy tank.
Lee Chin Eng was mentioned but as successful as he was, his system really does not count. His tanks were outside at the sea's edge. He used NSW every day and sunlight. He could replace his livestock whenever he wanted to by collecting a few feet away from his tanks.
His aquaintance Robert Straughn was really the Father of salt water fish keeping and he did it in the fiftees. (I still have his book) He also invented the UG filter but his idea on how it worked was incorrect.
Sprung and Delbeek were mentioned, both smart men, I remember when they started in the hobby.
Bob Goemans is a friend of mine. He has been to my home and mentioned my tank in a few of his articles. He lives in Arizona and I am in NY so I don't see him much but we E mail once in a while.
Anyway, it seems that all of the methods of reef keeping work and even none of them (BB tank) work. My theory is that the substrait is not really that important in the scheme of things. Some people just can't keep things alive no matter what they do and others can keep fish for twenty years in a goldfish bowl
I don't know much about DSB's except they are fairly new, to me anyway.
I personally can't see how they will work for many years because of physics.
But obviousely they do work. I think my RUGF works because I can occasionally stir it up and suck out the "stuff" with a diatom. I think this needs to be done. It happens on all reefs and it is a very violent event. If you do much diving you will see corals that obviousely weigh tons toppled over with one side dead. I have seen elkhorn corals toppled in such a way and elkhorns have very think bases. I have seen sea fans far up on the beach, ripped from the rock and pushed high over the road.
These events happen all the time in the sea and in my tank as I agressively blow stuff around.
I really think that this is important to a confined tank.
So to answer the original question, yes plenums can and do work.
Have a great day.
Paul

i read and read on the topic and was very excited about not having to worry about nitrate removal,I read nothing on the topic regarding maintenance issues,and was under the impression they were maint. free once set up properly i'll leave that to super smart pro's who write about and praise them,I had a fish only tank running with much less of a skimmer than the etts 800 i now run and never saw any hair algae,you have a great day also!(xfisher)

 

[Scooterman]

xfisher you can't set it & forget it anything that I know of, easy outs never worked for me. As for as plenum's I ran it reverse like Paul did & was successful but that was fw. One problem is as you mentioned it caked up over time & that was a food source for algae, remove the source & you remove the problem. Paul grows algae in his trough it works for him because of the little things that might of not been mentioned or overlooked, If I remember correctly he will harvest it from time to time. I run a Coast to coast & BB tank & don't have to deal with any of that, I remove the source before it ever becomes a problem.

 

[xfisher]

Just venting

xfisher you can't set it & forget it anything that I know of, easy outs never worked for me. As for as plenum's I ran it reverse like Paul did & was successful but that was fw. One problem is as you mentioned it caked up over time & that was a food source for algae, remove the source & you remove the problem. Paul grows algae in his trough it works for him because of the little things that might of not been mentioned or overlooked, If I remember correctly he will harvest it from time to time. I run a Coast to coast & BB tank & don't have to deal with any of that, I remove the source before it ever becomes a problem.

I know there are tasks you must do to maintain the beauty of the coral reef on the hobby scale.That being said at some point you want to enjoy that accomplishment and not spend hours upon hours dealing with problems,created by a phelum sys. that you really don't need it's suppose to eliminate some mainteance(nitrates).According to what I read if you have it set up in a high flow enviroment detritus settling and sand caking would be handled by the flow and the bacteria/critters in the top portion of sandbed this was clearly not the case. At least not in my experience,don't know why it did not work for me I set it up right.Since so much of it was cemented together and it wasn't in my display I was able to remove it painlessly.Again i will gladly do the water changes as opposed to dealing with working on my tank all day (christmas eve) pissed off .

 

[Scooterman]

LOL yea well your lucky you could just remove it, Imagine it in your main display! For whatever reason it didn't work I've seen some go many years as Paul's. It is nice to kick back & enjoy your tank.

 

[Paul B]

Hi guys, as for maintenance I did lift the UG plates after the first 25 years and I guess in another 25 I will do it again. There was almost no clumping of anything. I never spent hours on maintenance in my life except when I lifted the plates and that was mostly because I wanted to see what it looked like under there. It was loaded with tiny red feather dusters and worms. It looked healthy to me. The other maintenance I do is every three weeks or so, when I think about it I rinse the sponge which filters the water before it goes under the gravel. And maybe three or four times a year I take a diatom filter and stir things up. That takes about 30 minutes and I let it run for a few hours while I drink a few screwdrivers :badgrin: So I guess not counting changing the water which I also do about four times a year I spend about 6 hours a year on maintenance. Oh yeah I also feed the fish by hatching shrimp every day. That is automated so it takes about a minute a day. I really hate all this maintenance.
My algae trough is just an experiment and not needed. It is working well and I have not harvested any algae in almost a year. I counted that time in my maintenance schedule. :lol:
There is no algae in my tank presently and some of the fish are breeding every few weeks.
Have a great day, I need to take a minute or two for maintenance.
Take care.
Paul

 

[xfisher]

pro's and cons

:exclaim::exclaim:

LOL yea well your lucky you could just remove it, Imagine it in your main display! For whatever reason it didn't work I've seen some go many years as Paul's. It is nice to kick back & enjoy your tank.

Maybe if it was in my main display the 300 I spent on crabs/snails would still be with me also,and they would have helped with phelum top layer upkeep,I'm not sure, mostly all my snails died during 2 mos. spent battling algae and not knowing why. I didn't check nitrate levels w/280llbs of year old rock 1.5 inch sand bed in the display constantly moved around by the blue cheek goby,and the water changes I did I wasn't looking for nitrate issues,however judging the amount of detritus I removed w/ the phelum I wouldn't suprised if nitrates were not a issue.Actually I'm sure that was the food source not the dreaded PO. Anyway remotely located is the way to go I can move on from this episode.I think the cons outweigh the pros for systems the size of most hobby lovers that can accomplish nitrate control thru water changes w/good ro/di water and a :exclaim::exclaim:tds meter.

 

[xfisher]

Maintenance

:badgrin:

Hi guys, as for maintenance I did lift the UG plates after the first 25 years and I guess in another 25 I will do it again. There was almost no clumping of anything. I never spent hours on maintenance in my life except when I lifted the plates and that was mostly because I wanted to see what it looked like under there. It was loaded with tiny red feather dusters and worms. It looked healthy to me. The other maintenance I do is every three weeks or so, when I think about it I rinse the sponge which filters the water before it goes under the gravel. And maybe three or four times a year I take a diatom filter and stir things up. That takes about 30 minutes and I let it run for a few hours while I drink a few screwdrivers :badgrin: So I guess not counting changing the water which I also do about four times a year I spend about 6 hours a year on maintenance. Oh yeah I also feed the fish by hatching shrimp every day. That is automated so it takes about a minute a day. I really hate all this maintenance.
My algae trough is just an experiment and not needed. It is working well and I have not harvested any algae in almost a year. I counted that time in my maintenance schedule. :lol:
There is no algae in my tank presently and some of the fish are breeding every few weeks.
Have a great day, I need to take a minute or two for maintenance.
Take care.
Paul

As I have stated I have no prob. doing the required tasks if it means I get the rewards the come w/ good water quaility,it is very rewarding hobby,I'm glad it (the phelum)works in your setup w/o working you to death at your age

 

[Paul B]

At my age!
Just because Moses helped me set up the tank and it is older than most people here, I am not that old. :lol:

 

[Scooterman]

You know another thing one's idea of a set-up isn't the same for all, my tank some would call sterile but It isn't, just looks like that without he sand. Unbelievable I don't run a skimmer at this point, may one day but find I don't need it, point is my set-up I can get away with it, all depends on how things are made & set-up.

 

[xfisher]

You know another thing one's idea of a set-up isn't the same for all, my tank some would call sterile but It isn't, just looks like that without he sand. Unbelievable I don't run a skimmer at this point, may one day but find I don't need it, point is my set-up I can get away with it, all depends on how things are made & set-up.

Very true I hated to do away with the concept of 0 nitrates with miminal water changes that the phelum represents according to what I've read and heard from others like yourself and Paul B a veteran hobbist that has it working very sucessfully for many years,however to each his own and the problems I experienced probably were due to lack of complete research,I had no idea that I needed to stir the top layer with all the flow going thru the phelum area which was all the turnover from my dual corner overflows 1400gals. per hr. ,I didn't think detritus was settling the way it was and believed it was in circ. and being removed by the mechanic fitler I had in continous use w/an ikawa 55 leaving the sump going to a Pentair canister then thru charcoal/phosguard heater and back to the sump.If I didn't have the etts 800 skimming away I probably would have been totally sunk,thanks to that skimmer working I'm looking forward to enjoying my reef soon.

 

[Paul B]

I still spend hours looking at my tank, I even look at it with a magnifying glass because I am as interested in the microscope life as I am in the expensive stuff. I love lifting a rock and seeing all the worms underneith. I also like to put a food pellet in the gravel next to the glass and watch the creatures come to dinner. You would be amazed at whats living in there.

 

[Mr.Firemouth]

Xfisher,
Clumping of the sand is very common on systems with higher Ca and Alk levels if the sand bed is not "stirred", either by you or by sand sifters. This "clumping" limits available surface area to a plenum and causes it to become inefficient.

Phosphate is the #1 enemy of the closed reef tank. It fuels not only algae problems, but also feeds cyano and combined with sulphates can cause hydrogen sulfide problems deep in the sand bed.
These problems will be with plenum or DSB. Remote plenums or DSB's are much easier to maintain and remove if they become a problem from a lack of proper maintenance.(depending on the design of the system used.)

Not all DSB's or plenums are equal as sand grains, water flows, and bio-loads(including DOC levels) differ from tank to tank. Therefore the level of maintenance can be very different from system to system.

As mentioned many times, these systems are designed to remove nitrates thru bacterial processes. PO4 is left behind and if not removed by other means like algal refugiums or resins/water changes, can and will cause the systems mentioned to fail fairly quickly.

Bob Goemans, IMO, is the leading advocate and best known person to discuss plenums with as he can explain the physical and chemical properties/processes of what actually happens day to day on plenums. He is a great guy and a good friend of the hobby.

As always, proper maintenance of any system design is key to it's success. Even water changes are a waste of time if the source water isn't RO/DI with 0ppm TDS. It will just add nutrients over time.

Most importantly to note here is...no matter what filter system design is employed, the user MUST HAVE a complete understanding of the science behind the specific system chosen, be comfortable maintaining said system, and be capable of troubleshooting and correcting any problems as they may arise for it to survive long term. All systems show short term success, but long term success is only achieved by really understanding the system chosen.

HTH, Rich

 

[Mr.Firemouth]

Xfisher,
a recommendation, from a personal point of view and experience, would be to add a small reactor like this one...
Reactor
and this media...
Phosar HC
These products will increase phosphate control dramatically!

Just a suggestion that would help long term.

 

[xfisher]

Xfisher,
a recommendation, from a personal point of view and experience, would be to add a small reactor like this one...
Reactor
and this media...
Phosar HC
These products will increase phosphate control dramatically!

Just a suggestion that would help long term.

Thanks :idea:

 

[mojoreef]

Its funny, I still havent seen a plenum in this thread, or even a link to one. I think the reason most people have issues with them is that they dont know what their really supposed to be. Most plenums you see are not even close to the set up or concept.

Mike

 

[Mr.Firemouth]

Mojo, post 49 in this thread is a tank with a plenum. The plenum is one inch before the glass and is hidden by a layer of sand.

My system in an earlier post in this thread uses the refugium/DSB.