using a Plenum in a aquarium
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Idealy, as much of the detritus should be removed as possible. The idea is to keep the bioload on the plenum (or any substrate for that matter) to a minimum in order to keep from overwhelming it, thus increasing both its lifespan and its effectiveness.
MikeS
ichthyoid
Member
Summary and thoughts
What I see emerging here is a recurring theme of limiting nutrients, which is not new to the hobby. We seem to all be in agreement with this.
In studying biology as a hobbyist, student and professional there is a recurring theme that mostly repeats what we have observed. 1) Nutrients are limiting. Also, that 2) life depends on limiting factors and these occur in an order of priority, with major and minor factors.
An example of this would be something like this: If we are talking about growing algae, then light (sunlight or artificial)), co2, nitrogen (nitrate or ammonium), phosphorous (phosphate) and potassium would be among major limiting factors. Then- magnesium, manganese, sulphur, iodine (iodide), silicon, etc. would be among minor limiting factors. These are sometimes referred to as 'nutrients' and 'trace elements'. A limit in any one of the major factors causes a limited maximum metabolic rate to be achieved regardless of the amount of the other factors. The minor factors will have an effect if limited but not as pronounced in either time or degree.
We have focused on nitrate reduction using sand beds, with or without plenums. Regardless of the amount of other factors present in our tanks (including phosphorous), if available nitrogen is limited (nitrate in particular, assuming our tanks are cycled of course) we get better results. 3)Assuming that our tanks are in otherwise 'good condition', Nitrate in particular appears to be detrimental to the health of corals. It is for that reason that we are here discussing this, true?
I set up my first saltwater tank in 1973. I initially had more failure than success, but it did 2 things for me. 1) taught me a lot through experimentation and observation; and 2) instilled in me a desire to learn more, that has lasted to this day. I have tried the big three methods of keeping aquariums, both salt and fresh water. These are
1-high tech,
2-low tech and
3-no tech.
Below I will summarize my findings for saltwater.
What works:
-Limited feeding (balance requirements of specimens and the system)
-testing your water using a good commercial test kit (more if you're a newbie, less often with experience)
-protein skimming (I like paddle wheel designs, I think large high powered downdrafts are inefficient from a power perspective)
-partial water changes (I prefer about 5% of actual volume per week)
-activated carbon (suggested reading-http://www.hallman.org/filter/gac.html)
-low bio-load to volume ratio (limit the addition of fish especially)
-refugiums (more balance/stability/diversity)
-algae (prefer chaetomorpha in a refugium)
-adding calcium (suggested reading-http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefcase/kalkwasser.html)
*the above step combines calcium with carbon 'boosting'*
-adding magnesium, iodine, strontium for coral growth
-Other than the reef itself, the best investment you can possibly make is a backup power supply. The preferred system will have an 'automatic switch-over' capability, because when you loose power Murphy will be at fault, and you will not be home. It does not have to run everything, but the pumps are a must!
I have used nitrate reactors with great success, both commercial designs and self made. If you understand them, they are no more difficult to maintain than any other component in a marine aquarium (reef or otherwise). To be successful you must 'feed' them. This involves the addition of organic carbon, whether in the form of alcohols, sugars, or in my case calcium acetate (see above calcium addition), or one type that uses sulphur (which I have not tried) . They operate as an anaerobic digester. This means there is VERY little or no oxygen present. Anything you may have learned about how 'aerobic' or conventional aquariums work, does not apply here. In fact, they are exact opposites. Instead of an oxidizing environment, they use a reducing environment to eliminate the nitrate. If you don't understand them, I suggest you speak to someone that does, or read up on them before trying one. I personally prefer designs that do not require me to tear apart the thing for maintenence. This, as with so many other things, defeats the purpose of having the aquarium. That is: TO ENJOY IT.
Note:
Sugar/vodka/etc. does not contain ATP. These 'foodsources' may be used by organisms to convert to ATP, or adenosine triphosphate as it is also known. ATP is the 'universal' energy molecule of life on earth. During respiration ATP gives up phosphate to form ADP (diphosphate), and possibly AMP (monophosphate) under the right conditions. This molecule provides energy for the organism at the cellular level.
Note:
Constructing a plenum is simple. It requires eggcrate, small diameter pvc (I used 1/2 inch), pull ties (the kind without metal in them) and some plastic window screen material. You simply cut eggcrate to dimensions of tank bottom less an inch or so for gravel around the edges. use pull ties to secure pvc to eggcrate bottom (lengthwise). Cover top and sides of eggcrate with window screen (you may use small pull ties to secure the screen to eggcrate, and 'wrap' the screen around the edges and tuck underneath the plenum). Place assembled plenum on bottom of tank. Cover with aragonite based (crushed coral rock) gravel. The suggested gravel size is 1-2 mm, 3-4 inches deep. Suggested reading (basic description)-http://www.aquariumpros.com/articles/biofiltertypes.shtml
I suggest the plenum go in a separate tank/refugium which can be isolated from the rest of the system if needed.
Not tried/observations:
-bare bottom tanks, THEY ARE UGLY...IMO.
-electrical denitrator, an expensive gadget with some merit but was impractical, not tried
-personally do not care for/see the need for ozone
-ORP is a good indicator of overall system health, but is NOT AN INDICATOR OF A PARTICULAR PARAMETER (including oxygen), other than the availability of electrons in the system.
-iron oxide for phosphate removal has merit, with added advantage of being easily removed if placed within a mesh bag. Works better in a flow through application.
-reefkeeping requires work, by yourself or someone else
-any effort reducing work required, enhances enjoyment
-KISS principle is essential for long term success (see above)
-The 'low tech' approach has consistently yielded best results
-I design and build most of my system components, excluding the glass box, because I enjoy that too. Also, I get to try things the way I think best, or do things no one else has. This BRINGS ME JOY also.
-Use a GFCI type circuit breaker on anything connected to your tank. It may save your life.
-Use an inert type metal (titanium) grounding probe in your tank(s). See above. PS-clean it regularly
-Do not be afraid to experiement, within reason.
-Minimize the potential harm to the life forms under your care.
What I see emerging here is a recurring theme of limiting nutrients, which is not new to the hobby. We seem to all be in agreement with this.
In studying biology as a hobbyist, student and professional there is a recurring theme that mostly repeats what we have observed. 1) Nutrients are limiting. Also, that 2) life depends on limiting factors and these occur in an order of priority, with major and minor factors.
An example of this would be something like this: If we are talking about growing algae, then light (sunlight or artificial)), co2, nitrogen (nitrate or ammonium), phosphorous (phosphate) and potassium would be among major limiting factors. Then- magnesium, manganese, sulphur, iodine (iodide), silicon, etc. would be among minor limiting factors. These are sometimes referred to as 'nutrients' and 'trace elements'. A limit in any one of the major factors causes a limited maximum metabolic rate to be achieved regardless of the amount of the other factors. The minor factors will have an effect if limited but not as pronounced in either time or degree.
We have focused on nitrate reduction using sand beds, with or without plenums. Regardless of the amount of other factors present in our tanks (including phosphorous), if available nitrogen is limited (nitrate in particular, assuming our tanks are cycled of course) we get better results. 3)Assuming that our tanks are in otherwise 'good condition', Nitrate in particular appears to be detrimental to the health of corals. It is for that reason that we are here discussing this, true?
I set up my first saltwater tank in 1973. I initially had more failure than success, but it did 2 things for me. 1) taught me a lot through experimentation and observation; and 2) instilled in me a desire to learn more, that has lasted to this day. I have tried the big three methods of keeping aquariums, both salt and fresh water. These are
1-high tech,
2-low tech and
3-no tech.
Below I will summarize my findings for saltwater.
What works:
-Limited feeding (balance requirements of specimens and the system)
-testing your water using a good commercial test kit (more if you're a newbie, less often with experience)
-protein skimming (I like paddle wheel designs, I think large high powered downdrafts are inefficient from a power perspective)
-partial water changes (I prefer about 5% of actual volume per week)
-activated carbon (suggested reading-http://www.hallman.org/filter/gac.html)
-low bio-load to volume ratio (limit the addition of fish especially)
-refugiums (more balance/stability/diversity)
-algae (prefer chaetomorpha in a refugium)
-adding calcium (suggested reading-http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefcase/kalkwasser.html)
*the above step combines calcium with carbon 'boosting'*
-adding magnesium, iodine, strontium for coral growth
-Other than the reef itself, the best investment you can possibly make is a backup power supply. The preferred system will have an 'automatic switch-over' capability, because when you loose power Murphy will be at fault, and you will not be home. It does not have to run everything, but the pumps are a must!
I have used nitrate reactors with great success, both commercial designs and self made. If you understand them, they are no more difficult to maintain than any other component in a marine aquarium (reef or otherwise). To be successful you must 'feed' them. This involves the addition of organic carbon, whether in the form of alcohols, sugars, or in my case calcium acetate (see above calcium addition), or one type that uses sulphur (which I have not tried) . They operate as an anaerobic digester. This means there is VERY little or no oxygen present. Anything you may have learned about how 'aerobic' or conventional aquariums work, does not apply here. In fact, they are exact opposites. Instead of an oxidizing environment, they use a reducing environment to eliminate the nitrate. If you don't understand them, I suggest you speak to someone that does, or read up on them before trying one. I personally prefer designs that do not require me to tear apart the thing for maintenence. This, as with so many other things, defeats the purpose of having the aquarium. That is: TO ENJOY IT.
Note:
Sugar/vodka/etc. does not contain ATP. These 'foodsources' may be used by organisms to convert to ATP, or adenosine triphosphate as it is also known. ATP is the 'universal' energy molecule of life on earth. During respiration ATP gives up phosphate to form ADP (diphosphate), and possibly AMP (monophosphate) under the right conditions. This molecule provides energy for the organism at the cellular level.
Note:
Constructing a plenum is simple. It requires eggcrate, small diameter pvc (I used 1/2 inch), pull ties (the kind without metal in them) and some plastic window screen material. You simply cut eggcrate to dimensions of tank bottom less an inch or so for gravel around the edges. use pull ties to secure pvc to eggcrate bottom (lengthwise). Cover top and sides of eggcrate with window screen (you may use small pull ties to secure the screen to eggcrate, and 'wrap' the screen around the edges and tuck underneath the plenum). Place assembled plenum on bottom of tank. Cover with aragonite based (crushed coral rock) gravel. The suggested gravel size is 1-2 mm, 3-4 inches deep. Suggested reading (basic description)-http://www.aquariumpros.com/articles/biofiltertypes.shtml
I suggest the plenum go in a separate tank/refugium which can be isolated from the rest of the system if needed.
Not tried/observations:
-bare bottom tanks, THEY ARE UGLY...IMO.
-electrical denitrator, an expensive gadget with some merit but was impractical, not tried
-personally do not care for/see the need for ozone
-ORP is a good indicator of overall system health, but is NOT AN INDICATOR OF A PARTICULAR PARAMETER (including oxygen), other than the availability of electrons in the system.
-iron oxide for phosphate removal has merit, with added advantage of being easily removed if placed within a mesh bag. Works better in a flow through application.
-reefkeeping requires work, by yourself or someone else
-any effort reducing work required, enhances enjoyment
-KISS principle is essential for long term success (see above)
-The 'low tech' approach has consistently yielded best results
-I design and build most of my system components, excluding the glass box, because I enjoy that too. Also, I get to try things the way I think best, or do things no one else has. This BRINGS ME JOY also.
-Use a GFCI type circuit breaker on anything connected to your tank. It may save your life.
-Use an inert type metal (titanium) grounding probe in your tank(s). See above. PS-clean it regularly
-Do not be afraid to experiement, within reason.
-Minimize the potential harm to the life forms under your care.
Last edited:
emora
Member
I'm surprised that with all this well thought out discussion, no one has mentioned Toonen's article comparing the workings of sandbeds with and without plenums.
Basically, Toonen's work has gone to show what many aquarists have already discovered when they began using xSBs without plenums: the results with either type of system are pretty much the same.
Basically, Toonen's work has gone to show what many aquarists have already discovered when they began using xSBs without plenums: the results with either type of system are pretty much the same.
emora
Member
Oops, I forgot to drop the link to the article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature
Jumpincactus
Well-known member
Disagree
Skimmer, I dont agree with your statement, that if you want colorful corals then dont use a DSB or plenum. Heres a link to a killer system using a Jaubert setup. Now get this, Frank Eseer uses no skimmer and now this shoots a lot of lighting advocates that you can only get color using MH he only uses 4 54 watt T5,s. His tank thrives. As you will agree after veiwing his pics at the following link @ Advanced Aquarist online http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/2/aquarium Nothing wrong with those colors. I would kill for SPS coloration like he has.
So it would seem some age old selling points on skimmers and intense lighting for thriving SPS is out the window based on many tanks using plenums. Also this is not an isolated system. There are many more out there just a colorful utilizing the same techniques.Franks tank BTW is 4 years + old
Skimmer, I dont agree with your statement, that if you want colorful corals then dont use a DSB or plenum. Heres a link to a killer system using a Jaubert setup. Now get this, Frank Eseer uses no skimmer and now this shoots a lot of lighting advocates that you can only get color using MH he only uses 4 54 watt T5,s. His tank thrives. As you will agree after veiwing his pics at the following link @ Advanced Aquarist online http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/2/aquarium Nothing wrong with those colors. I would kill for SPS coloration like he has.
So it would seem some age old selling points on skimmers and intense lighting for thriving SPS is out the window based on many tanks using plenums. Also this is not an isolated system. There are many more out there just a colorful utilizing the same techniques.Franks tank BTW is 4 years + old
Last edited:
Mr.Firemouth
RUL'N DA REEFS
This guy has a plenum, with some screening that wrapped around the sides so he could hide it from view...His tank rocks, is ten years old, and here are some pics...
Having kept so many different hybrid systems in the past, it really comes down to maintenance. Maintain the system with the proper understanding of it's short comings so that you can compensate accordingly and it will thrive for years without failure.
The tank above is a 110g with a small skimmer(3" diameter@18" tall) and no fuge. Phosphates are controlled with a Phosban reactor and Kalkwasser drips. Liquid Calcium is the only other additive he uses.
Having kept so many different hybrid systems in the past, it really comes down to maintenance. Maintain the system with the proper understanding of it's short comings so that you can compensate accordingly and it will thrive for years without failure.
The tank above is a 110g with a small skimmer(3" diameter@18" tall) and no fuge. Phosphates are controlled with a Phosban reactor and Kalkwasser drips. Liquid Calcium is the only other additive he uses.
Skimmy
SKIM FU
you know, i hear this all the time, people who have tanks that "break the rules", and still experience success, and then people emulate those tanks and use them as examples...
not the smartest way to make it through this hobby...
also, did you read the maintenance required and the equipment used on that system?? it's very tech/maintenance heavy to make up for his "natural method"
i never said it cant be done, i said it SHOULDNT be done
because you never hear about the weekend the guy spends taking his reef apart to clean his plentum, and what will happen if he doesnt do that.
or when the powerhead falls and blows all the sand away from his plentum.
i've heard exponentially more negative stories and scenarios with plenums/dsb then ever seeing positive results and stability in those systems.
it's going to take more than a handfull of successfull tanks in a 10 year timeframe to change my thinking
besides, as a whole, we have already figured out better methods for running reef tanks, so why live in 10 years ago?? i see no benifit...
not the smartest way to make it through this hobby...
also, did you read the maintenance required and the equipment used on that system?? it's very tech/maintenance heavy to make up for his "natural method"
i never said it cant be done, i said it SHOULDNT be done
because you never hear about the weekend the guy spends taking his reef apart to clean his plentum, and what will happen if he doesnt do that.
or when the powerhead falls and blows all the sand away from his plentum.
i've heard exponentially more negative stories and scenarios with plenums/dsb then ever seeing positive results and stability in those systems.
it's going to take more than a handfull of successfull tanks in a 10 year timeframe to change my thinking
besides, as a whole, we have already figured out better methods for running reef tanks, so why live in 10 years ago?? i see no benifit...
Skimmer, I dont agree with your statement, that if you want colorful corals then dont use a DSB or plenum. Heres a link to a killer system using a Jaubert setup. Now get this, Frank Eseer uses no skimmer and now this shoots a lot of lighting advocates that you can only get color using MH he only uses 4 54 watt T5,s. His tank thrives. As you will agree after veiwing his pics at the following link @ Advanced Aquarist online http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/2/aquarium Nothing wrong with those colors. I would kill for SPS coloration like he has.
So it would seem some age old selling points on skimmers and intense lighting for thriving SPS is out the window based on many tanks using plenums. Also this is not an isolated system. There are many more out there just a colorful utilizing the same techniques.Franks tank BTW is 4 years + old
Scooterman
Well-known member
Mike, I thought on a DSB you want to feed the sb & heavily if it is set-up properly?
Edit, confused myself! N/M LOL
I just experienced a nasty hair algae problem in my display tank,it was everywhere I think it was caused by the cal. reac. co2 input with no effeunt drip due a feedwater prob.,my corals are constantly covered by the dying hair algae.but the colors still are good.The reef closed system sure will make you look bad for investment of time energy and funds if you aren't on top of maint. my tank is 265g w/phelum underneath in a 75g the fish load is low 5 anthias ,5g. chromis, 1 hippo tang, 1 blue cheek goby 2small clowns ,1 firefish ,a low bio load compared to some i've seen,still i had a algae prob. out of this world.My point being all the xpert opions on the phelum I read before trying it I'm not sure are worth it or not , I'm not going to break it down,but i think water changes and a good protein skimmer and fuge ,prob.are better than relying on the use of a phelum that works only if u have the other items in place.if I had it to do over I would not use the plelum and just have my sump in use for circulation/skimming etc.
Mr.Firemouth
RUL'N DA REEFS
These devices are used to remove nitrates thru bacterial respiration.(Obligate heterotrophs)
Phosphates fuel algae and as part of this system need to be removed from both source water, make up water, and the aquarium. Try using Warner Marine phoSar HC in a filter(phos reactor) and see if it helps. This product is very efficient and should make you very happy.
Phosphates fuel algae and as part of this system need to be removed from both source water, make up water, and the aquarium. Try using Warner Marine phoSar HC in a filter(phos reactor) and see if it helps. This product is very efficient and should make you very happy.
phoshate control
My level always tests negative/I use the seachem phosguard in a lifeguard canister filled w/ activated charcoal and topped w/ the phosguard that I remove from the filter after one week and run the charcoal constantly rinsing weekly.
My level always tests negative/I use the seachem phosguard in a lifeguard canister filled w/ activated charcoal and topped w/ the phosguard that I remove from the filter after one week and run the charcoal constantly rinsing weekly.
Scooterman
Well-known member
Have you tested down low in your sb?
:
is registering near the sandbed would'nt be in the water column as well?
No I usually get a sample from the top near the surface,did'nt think it mattered where the water was taken if phoshate
is registering near the sandbed would'nt be in the water column as well?
Scooterman
Well-known member
I would do a test in a clam area close to the sb next time, see what you get.
Scooterman
Well-known member
Well, I think to really get to the cause of your problem it will take a through break down, finding the actual cause or causes then solutions. What your doing is all good but sometimes even all that a you still could be stuck with a problem. I've used plenum's in FW & succeeded years with no issues, I like them but as mentioned proper husbandry is key but this doesn't sound like the only problem in this case.
