Waterlife Octozin?

[Peca]

Is it safe to use Waterlife Octozin (http://www.waterlife.co.uk/waterlife/octozin.htm) in aquarium with invertebrates? They claim that it is safe. Anybody had experience? I have problem with whitespots on my Regal tang. Other fishes are OK. I have started UV lamp a few days ago and broke down place where tang sleep, so he changed sleeping place.

 

[Peca]

Anybody? I need help!

 

[Peca]

This is what I got from Waterlife:

Dear Predrag,
Octozin is not copper based. The Octozin you have may have started to deteriorate depending on how it is stored if it is kept in a cool dark place it should last for 10 years.
If you are going to try to cure the problem with an UV we would suggest that you also drop your S.G down to 1.017 at the same time for a period of 3 weeks. see The Reef Aquarium Volume 1 by Charles Delbeek and Julian Sprung (pg 229).
Regards,
WATERLIFE.

I am not sure is it safe to lower S.G. at 1.017 with invertebrates?

 

[Detri]

Sorry I don't know. I am sure someone will come by that does.

 

[wrightme43]

Man its really not safe to lower the salinity with inverts. But you already know that. The best bet would be to move him to a seperate tank with lower salinity and use the uv there as well. I have zero experince with Octozin. I have seen the effects of other stuff making the same claims, none of them worked. Hope this helps some.

 

[steve-s]

Unless I am mistaken, the main ingredient for Octozin is Metronidazole, hence the primary use being for internal parasite problems. It would make a very poor choice of treatment for crypt.

The one main thing to remember about any such treatment that is safe for invertebrates is it's effectiveness on a ciliated protazoa will be equally as weak. You will also need to realize that if one fish has C. irritans, all the fish in the tank are most likely carriers to some extent as well. If any fish remain in the tank and unteated, it will reoccure down the road.

How many fish/what species do you have and what do you have in the way of a QT?

Cheers
Steve

 

[Peca]

I also suppose that metronidazole is main ingredient, because of treatment spectar (Hole in the head - HLLE, Malawi bloat...). This is what I got yesterday from Waterlife:

"Dear Predrag,
we have used the S.G method with success, we can not give you a guarantee as it is not our method. You can read about the effectiveness of this method from the reference.
I am sorry but at the moment Waterlife do not release the formulations of their medications as they consider them to be the owners intellectual property."

So, they claim simply to put something into aquarium. This year in Practical FishKeeping (best selling UK magazine) started discussion about manufacturers and their practice of not placing ingredients on product package (drug).
Steve, I am also interested where you find data about Octozin and metronidazole? And if it is metronidazole, wich stage of Oodinium or/and Cryptocarion they cure?

My aquarium is small, only 160 l (40 gallons), and have 5 fishes: 3 ocellaris, 1 Regal tang and 1 six line wrasse, some soft corals - sarcos and sinularias, some mushrooms, green star polyps, buttons... mainly low light demand animals. I think that NO2 is trigger for whitespots. 10 days ago we have electrical failure and NO2 jump to 0,1. Right now it is 0,05.

Thanks Steve

 

[steve-s]

Steve, I am also interested where you find data about Octozin and metronidazole?

Alot of googling and intuition , I will see if I can find the references again.

And if it is metronidazole, wich stage of Oodinium or/and Cryptocarion they cure?

It won't, that's the problem. Metronidazole is a good treatment for internal problems (de worming) but is ineffective against these two, especially the Amyloodinium.

My aquarium is small, only 160 l (40 gallons), and have 5 fishes: 3 ocellaris, 1 Regal tang and 1 six line wrasse, some soft corals - sarcos and sinularias, some mushrooms, green star polyps, buttons... mainly low light demand animals.

I mean no offense but you have more fish than I do in my 90, very cramped especially for the tang. Once you get this sorted out, I would highly suggest finding the tang a larger home or upgrading your tank size.

I think that NO2 is trigger for whitespots. 10 days ago we have electrical failure and NO2 jump to 0,1. Right now it is 0,05.

No amount of stress or other water conditions can cause C. irritans to just happen. The parasite was either present in the tank to begin with or was recently introduced. Stress can lower the immune response of the fish leaving it open to attack and infestation faster than if it where in prime health but a healthy fish can get it just as easily. If the parasite is not present, no amount of stress will bring about this parasite.

What was the last item added (fish/coral/hard surface item) and how long ago? Just because a fish developes a spot on it's body does not automatically mean crypt so best to be sure.

If this is C. irritans, your best approach is to remove all the fish to a large enough QT. It doesn't need to a be a proper tank although being able to view the fish properly is a plus, a large rubbermaid tote will do. It doesn't need to look good, just be functional. If you have any bacterial mass that can be transfered that will help immensely. Something from the sump, canister filter or HOB. Biowheels work very well for this process. Along with that you will need a heater and powerhead if water flow is not optimum.

Follow the directions on this website. Pay special attention to salinity (14 ppt) and pH throughout the process, especially the pH during the initial drop. Using buffered RO water for the dilution will help minimize the pH drops. It is also not uncommon to need buffer to maintain pH/alk during the process. I would test at least 2x a day to be sure everything is in order. Please be sure to use a refractometer, not a hydrometer.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html

Cheers
Steve

 

[Terry B]

Steve is giving you good advice.

Terry B

 

[Peca]

All fishes are young, less than one year old. They are still small. I am in process of making 62 gal aquarium + 13 gal filter, with stronger light.
Last items added in aquarium were wrasse, but more than few months and live rock, less then month.
I have 10 gallon empty aquarium with Aquarium Systems Millenium 2000 filter, air driven small skimmer, heater and light. I use RO water, pH meter and refractometer
Are you recommending treatment without medications, only with low salinity?

 

[Maxx]

Peca,
Steve has given you some great advice, and I would also reccomend NOT using this in your main tank. Try and removed the fish from the tank and treat it with a stronger medication and lowered specific gravity. If you're unable to remove the fish, best bet is to add garlic to the food in order to boost up the fishes immune system.

Nick

 

[steve-s]

You have the right equipment to use with a quarantine, you just need a larger holding vessel for the fish. Keep in mind the QT itself does not need to be a tank, anything large enough will do. Clear rubbermaid tote bins are an excellent option and usually quite cheap. I still think it's a do able option for you, you just need to be a bit more creative on the type of QT tank.

Garlic can be a decent aid to a proven cure but it does not actually eliminate the problem. What you end up with is building the fish resistance until it build some immunity agaist the parasite. Aquired immunity means the parasite will still be present just less problematic for the existing fish population. This is often short lived and just about anything can trigger another onslaught usually much worse than before. You are better off eliminating the problem, than reducing it.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Maxx]

No arguement on that front Steve....
But if you cant remove the fish from the tank, anything is better than nothing.

Nick

 

[Peca]

At this moment, all fishes are good. Even Regal tang has lost most of the parasites. I agree with you, I would like to eliminate this problem, rather than reducing it. So, what is the smallest volume of QT for my 4 small fish and one tang (about 3-4 inch)?
Hmmm... Rubbermaid. It is mission impossible to find such big vessel from rubbermaid or some other "marine safe" plastic. I will try to find larger aquarium. What should I use as a treatment? Should I use some copper base medication? And one remark: it is impossible to find copper test kit in Belgrade (Serbia).

 

[NaH2O]

Instead of using copper, do the hyposalinity treatment.

Here is an article that discusses hyposalinity: News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon Irritans - Part Three of Five

Here is a recent thread from a member that had a Powder Blue Tang with ich. It is a good thread on things to expect when doing hyposalinity treatment, also discusses the size QT he used: Fish Moving Time Please.

Hope you find this helpful!

 

[steve-s]

Agreed with Nikki, no copper test kits means no copper treatment. You would be risking alot.

How much rock and coral is there and has the 10 gal ever been used with copper or other harmful substances?

You could remove a much as possible and perform the hypo in the main. It is by far not the best option but better than no option. You would need to be especially watchful of water quality due to the enevitable die off from the fauna in the sand. The rock/corals removed would also need to stay in the 10 gal for two months before adding them after the treatment is done.

Cheers
Steve

 

[wayne in norway]

Steve, Terry - I will say upfront that I am a strong advocate of treating ich with 'traditional' cures suchas copper and hyposalinity down to 1.009, and am very, very keen on QT.

However if there was one possible thing I ould possibly investigate as a miracle cure it would be metronidazole as I am under the impression that although it is now sold mainly as an a bactericide, it was originally developed as an anti parasite treatment - the bactericidal properties were discovered by chance later.

Any comments, thoughts?

 

[steve-s]

Metronidazole is best used as a remedy for internal flagellate protozoa in regards to fish. While I won't go so far as to say it will never work for C. irritans, it is not often very effective, especially on it's own. The main consideration being it is not something that will destroy the parasite each time it's used. The overall effectiveness being less than 50%. This makes it a chance medication in this regard and not the best consideration when treating fish for this parasite.

It's antibacterial properties are geared towards anaerobic types and as such, not a good choice for most Marine bacterial problems either unless specific.

Cheers
Steve

 

[NaH2O]

Metronidazole is best used as a remedy for internal flagellate protozoa in regards to fish. While I won't go so far as to say it will never work for C. irritans, it is not often very effective, especially on it's own. The main consideration being it is not something that will destroy the parasite each time it's used. The overall effectiveness being less than 50%. This makes it a chance medication in this regard and not the best consideration when treating fish for this parasite.

It's antibacterial properties are geared towards anaerobic types and as such, not a good choice for most Marine bacterial problems either unless specific.

Cheers
Steve

Steve, thanks for this post. I had read a few posts recently on another forum, where metronidazole was being used for C. irritans. I couldn't for the life of me figure out how effective it would be, or why it is said to be used against this parasite, knowing that it is best for internal protozoan and bacterial issues.

 

[Terry B]

I do not consider Metronidazole to be a consistently effective treatment for C.I.

Terry B