Weakened Immunity?
- Thread starter NaH2O
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Food for discussion -
Quote from - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=381003
"Our resident pathobiologist, Bomber, has recommended a flow rate of 5X hourly turnover as appropriate for this application. In other words, with a 100G tank, you want 500G/hour flow through the UV unit. Assuming the flow is reasonably even (i.e., no dead spots in the aquarium), that should be sufficient to reduce the parasite population enough so that it's not lethal to the fish (you can then rely on the fishes immune system to finish the job).
As for exposure, the recommendation for Ich is 90,000 uws (micro-Watt-seconds/square centimeter). Note that the exposure required to kill an organism is proportional to the organism's size. Compared to a bacterium, Cryptocaryon is huge. Units sold for pond or hobby use are sized by the manufacturer for killing bacteria and algal spores, not protozoans.
Typical hobby UV systems are sized at about 15,000 to 30,000 uws at 1X turnover. To get 90,000uws at 5X turnover, you need a unit about 15-30X bigger. The last time I went through the exercise, that came out to between 0.5 and 1.0 Watts per gallon of tank water, depending on the efficiency of the unit. "
If this is true then Witfull's comment about killing the free floating larva, while it sounds like a good control, would depend upon the size of the larva. I would say that the larva would be bigger than a protozoan which would mean that the hobby UV has little or no effect. Since I have no idea of the size of the larva in respect to a protozoan, I could be totally incorrect.
Vickie
Quote from - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=381003
"Our resident pathobiologist, Bomber, has recommended a flow rate of 5X hourly turnover as appropriate for this application. In other words, with a 100G tank, you want 500G/hour flow through the UV unit. Assuming the flow is reasonably even (i.e., no dead spots in the aquarium), that should be sufficient to reduce the parasite population enough so that it's not lethal to the fish (you can then rely on the fishes immune system to finish the job).
As for exposure, the recommendation for Ich is 90,000 uws (micro-Watt-seconds/square centimeter). Note that the exposure required to kill an organism is proportional to the organism's size. Compared to a bacterium, Cryptocaryon is huge. Units sold for pond or hobby use are sized by the manufacturer for killing bacteria and algal spores, not protozoans.
Typical hobby UV systems are sized at about 15,000 to 30,000 uws at 1X turnover. To get 90,000uws at 5X turnover, you need a unit about 15-30X bigger. The last time I went through the exercise, that came out to between 0.5 and 1.0 Watts per gallon of tank water, depending on the efficiency of the unit. "
If this is true then Witfull's comment about killing the free floating larva, while it sounds like a good control, would depend upon the size of the larva. I would say that the larva would be bigger than a protozoan which would mean that the hobby UV has little or no effect. Since I have no idea of the size of the larva in respect to a protozoan, I could be totally incorrect.
Vickie
Witfull
Well-known member
cut the flow and that increases exposure time to the UV. that gives better kill ratio. 500gph is a fast current through a UV, i would venture to say that there is a correlation between flow and watts.
Scooterman
Well-known member
Maybe his reasoning for such a high flow rate is the keep up with reproduction?
Witful you said - "the bulb has a longer life for that. 6-8 months parasite, 12-14 algae. but it also depends on the quality of the bulb---not are all made to the same standards."
I think the different standards is the NO and HO bulbs that Bomber talks about below.
from here - http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=69304
Bomber says - "Walking you thought it. I'll make up round numbers, OK? Say you have a UV that has a rated flow of 100gph when brand new. At the end of 6mos, it has a rated flow of 80gph. At the end of 12mos, it has a rated flow of 50gph. But, you need a rated flow of 100gph all year. Buy a UV that has a rated flow of 100gph at the end of 12 mos and you've got it. Actually, the organics need to be cleaned off about once a month, it's the bulb itself that degrades in 6mo (like replacing VHO or MH), getting a easy way to wipe them off is the purpose of the cleaning sleeve.
Now, here's how manfs are getting around this. A few, very few, manfs are now using German HO (high output) UV bulbs, and pairing them with electronic ballasts. This has actually been out commercially for over a decade. A unit with a 1800gph (salt water ick) only degrades to 1600gph after 12mo. So upsizing doesn't have to be so radical."
Scooterman, Bomber gives that recommendations as "A formula that works for us is:" from here - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144760
Vickie
I think the different standards is the NO and HO bulbs that Bomber talks about below.
from here - http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=69304
Bomber says - "Walking you thought it. I'll make up round numbers, OK? Say you have a UV that has a rated flow of 100gph when brand new. At the end of 6mos, it has a rated flow of 80gph. At the end of 12mos, it has a rated flow of 50gph. But, you need a rated flow of 100gph all year. Buy a UV that has a rated flow of 100gph at the end of 12 mos and you've got it. Actually, the organics need to be cleaned off about once a month, it's the bulb itself that degrades in 6mo (like replacing VHO or MH), getting a easy way to wipe them off is the purpose of the cleaning sleeve.
Now, here's how manfs are getting around this. A few, very few, manfs are now using German HO (high output) UV bulbs, and pairing them with electronic ballasts. This has actually been out commercially for over a decade. A unit with a 1800gph (salt water ick) only degrades to 1600gph after 12mo. So upsizing doesn't have to be so radical."
Scooterman, Bomber gives that recommendations as "A formula that works for us is:" from here - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144760
Vickie
More food for thought - from http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144760
Bomber says "You can use a lower wattage bulb with either a slower flow rate, or a faster flow but multiple passes through the UV and be effective against a algae/bacteria bloom. In order to kill parasites, you need a much higher wattage and proportionately slower flow rate, that exposes the parasite to a stronger dose at one time. "
lawndoctor says this - "In addition to what Jerel said about the manufacturer ratings, note that "turnover time" is different than GPH. For example, at 200 GPH a 200 gallon tank will not get a complete exchange of its volume in one hour. Rather, the turnover time for a 200 gallon tank at 200GPH is 9 hours."
I'm quitting for tonight. I still can't decide whether UV (that we can buy as a hobbiest) will actually kill diseases and viruses or not. All I am sure of is it will kill algae and probably the phyto and possibly the brine shrimp and rotifers that I so carefully feed the tank. I'm getting a headache trying to figure this out.
Vickie
Bomber says "You can use a lower wattage bulb with either a slower flow rate, or a faster flow but multiple passes through the UV and be effective against a algae/bacteria bloom. In order to kill parasites, you need a much higher wattage and proportionately slower flow rate, that exposes the parasite to a stronger dose at one time. "
lawndoctor says this - "In addition to what Jerel said about the manufacturer ratings, note that "turnover time" is different than GPH. For example, at 200 GPH a 200 gallon tank will not get a complete exchange of its volume in one hour. Rather, the turnover time for a 200 gallon tank at 200GPH is 9 hours."
I'm quitting for tonight. I still can't decide whether UV (that we can buy as a hobbiest) will actually kill diseases and viruses or not. All I am sure of is it will kill algae and probably the phyto and possibly the brine shrimp and rotifers that I so carefully feed the tank. I'm getting a headache trying to figure this out.
Vickie
Last edited:
Witfull
Well-known member
vicki, my statement as to all bulbs not made to the same standards was not at NO vs HO..i was referring to the fact that there are many poor quality bulbs on the market that degrade at a fast rate as compared to quality made (more expensive) bulbs.
and to answer your final Q yes UV on the market today can easily kill parasites and bacteria. re-read jerels posts and you will get a better grip on what he is saying.
take 2 asprin and buy a UV in the morning...lol
and to answer your final Q yes UV on the market today can easily kill parasites and bacteria. re-read jerels posts and you will get a better grip on what he is saying.
take 2 asprin and buy a UV in the morning...lol
I will generalize and use statistics as a concept.
If you look at your small systems ability to raise the ratio of pathogens vs water volume, it would be obvious that in a small span of time the system will have a high pathogen over water ratio.
Now the sea has a very small ratio due to it's size.
This is not scientific but imagine ONE pathogen per gallons and gallons of water in the sea compared to say ONE pathogen per say fluid ounce in a tank.
Now say an UV sterilizer removes enough pathogens to lower it to say ONE pathogen per PINT, it is still greater than the ratio in the sea.
So if it makes you feel comfortable use a UV. I doubt it is strong enough to kill your system. Besides a protien skimmer removes more vital nutrients than a UV sterilizer.
And I believe UV sterilizers do not kill pods (vital to reefs!) but kill algae (advantageous to reefs!)
just IMO....
If you look at your small systems ability to raise the ratio of pathogens vs water volume, it would be obvious that in a small span of time the system will have a high pathogen over water ratio.
Now the sea has a very small ratio due to it's size.
This is not scientific but imagine ONE pathogen per gallons and gallons of water in the sea compared to say ONE pathogen per say fluid ounce in a tank.
Now say an UV sterilizer removes enough pathogens to lower it to say ONE pathogen per PINT, it is still greater than the ratio in the sea.
So if it makes you feel comfortable use a UV. I doubt it is strong enough to kill your system. Besides a protien skimmer removes more vital nutrients than a UV sterilizer.
And I believe UV sterilizers do not kill pods (vital to reefs!) but kill algae (advantageous to reefs!)
just IMO....
Great conversation folks, good to see.
Reiple great to have you join the community
UV is most effective for its germicidal value in a clear water application at a wavelength of 265 nanometers. With proper exposure, ultraviolet radiation energy (ultraviolet light) penetrates a microorganism’s cell wall. It then destroys the nuclear material, causing abrupt modification and quickly bringing about its destruction.
Be careful! You cannot compare UV Sterilizers by the watt ratings alone. That would be like comparing cars by their engine size alone. The watt rating is just the starting point for comparisons. The full amount of UV energy required to kill a microorganism must hit the organism after it leaves the lamp, after it leaves the quartz sleeve, after the lamp has aged, and after it has passed by any turbidity and color that is blocking the light.
Low-pressure mercury type UV lamps are best suited to germicidal action because the primary radiation generated by these lamps consists almost exclusively of a spectral wavelength of 254 nanometers, which is close to the maximum peak germicidal effectiveness wave length of 265 nanometers. This gives the low-pressure mercury type lamps an exceptional 40 percent UV energy efficiency rate between input watts and UV output watts.
Medium and high pressure mercury type lamps are best suited for treatments involving chemical by-products associated with industrial waste water or for the drying of printing inks, paints and adhesives, not germicidal action. The bulk of their power is in the 320 to 440 nanometer range, well outside the germicidal range.
Ultraviolet light can be very effective at eliminating viruses, bacteria, algae and fungi. The required UV exposure rate to irradiate common bacteria is 15,000 µW-sec/cm2, while the required UV exposure for waterborne algae is 22,000 µW-sec/cm2. Since it is the intensity of light that is doing the killing, we must know how much light energy to use and how much is reaching the target. Just as some sunglasses and sunscreens reduce UV intensity, so does discolored water, turbidity, dirty quartz sleeves, and even some dissolved salts, such as sodium thiosulfate. Even lamp temperatures can reduce output when operated in cold water (110°F gives maximum UV output).To insure sterile water using UV light, first start with clear water, and have a lamp and flow rate that are sized to deliver the correct amount of irradiation for the target organism . If a UV light is flow rated for 15,000 mws and you want 30,000, either double the amount of lamps or reduce the flow by half, and so on for higher dosages.
Remember UV light will also generate ozone on the surface of the sleeve.
Mike
Reiple great to have you join the community
UV is most effective for its germicidal value in a clear water application at a wavelength of 265 nanometers. With proper exposure, ultraviolet radiation energy (ultraviolet light) penetrates a microorganism’s cell wall. It then destroys the nuclear material, causing abrupt modification and quickly bringing about its destruction.
Be careful! You cannot compare UV Sterilizers by the watt ratings alone. That would be like comparing cars by their engine size alone. The watt rating is just the starting point for comparisons. The full amount of UV energy required to kill a microorganism must hit the organism after it leaves the lamp, after it leaves the quartz sleeve, after the lamp has aged, and after it has passed by any turbidity and color that is blocking the light.
Low-pressure mercury type UV lamps are best suited to germicidal action because the primary radiation generated by these lamps consists almost exclusively of a spectral wavelength of 254 nanometers, which is close to the maximum peak germicidal effectiveness wave length of 265 nanometers. This gives the low-pressure mercury type lamps an exceptional 40 percent UV energy efficiency rate between input watts and UV output watts.
Medium and high pressure mercury type lamps are best suited for treatments involving chemical by-products associated with industrial waste water or for the drying of printing inks, paints and adhesives, not germicidal action. The bulk of their power is in the 320 to 440 nanometer range, well outside the germicidal range.
Ultraviolet light can be very effective at eliminating viruses, bacteria, algae and fungi. The required UV exposure rate to irradiate common bacteria is 15,000 µW-sec/cm2, while the required UV exposure for waterborne algae is 22,000 µW-sec/cm2. Since it is the intensity of light that is doing the killing, we must know how much light energy to use and how much is reaching the target. Just as some sunglasses and sunscreens reduce UV intensity, so does discolored water, turbidity, dirty quartz sleeves, and even some dissolved salts, such as sodium thiosulfate. Even lamp temperatures can reduce output when operated in cold water (110°F gives maximum UV output).To insure sterile water using UV light, first start with clear water, and have a lamp and flow rate that are sized to deliver the correct amount of irradiation for the target organism . If a UV light is flow rated for 15,000 mws and you want 30,000, either double the amount of lamps or reduce the flow by half, and so on for higher dosages.
Remember UV light will also generate ozone on the surface of the sleeve.
Mike
Angelscrx
Import Fish
If you keep your fish healthy, maintain good water quality, and quarantine any new additions, I think you wouldn't have to worry about fish stressing right?
Witfull
Well-known member
stress is not a major factor (it can be a trigger) when it comes to ich and other parasitic infections. a healthy happy fish can catch a case. the problem is when it becomes epidemic. i have seen tanks where there is one spot on one fish and it doesnt get any worse, then goes away (hippo tangs in particular). but i have seen tanks that have had one, then 5 then a bazzilion spots on fish as they start dying. its a matter of conditions being right for the parasite to proliferate. using a UV is one more tool in the shed of reefing.
Scooterman
Well-known member
I need to make some major changes in my system, after I finish the flooring in the new location I'll do a major move, one item I do need (or want) is a UV, also, thinking a bigger & better skimmer is called for when doing bb. I've had my Hippo almost a year, I keep him and a six line in my tank, along with a cleaner shrimp. The Hippo had bouts of Ick when he was in competition for food, new fish mates & other stresses. Since I returned most of my fish, he has become King Cobra, the past 6 months he hasn't done much of anything as for as scratching. I feed way less, he grazes more, when I do feed he flares up like never before. I may be wrong but I think it is a combination of things that leads to healthy fish, In an instant something can go wrong & cause enough stress to take out a species. Now as for as the six line, hum I think I could boil water in there & he still make it, just depends.
