What happen's if you add fish, snails ect. before the beginning cycles are done ?

[tyclark88]

so i just set up a 40 breeder after years of not having a tank set up i went off a friend's knowledge setting it up and he told me if i put some of his rock in i could add fish right away. so i went out bought a book and have been doing a ton of research and realize my buddys wrong. im currently on my second week but i have two clowns and a snail in there with 40 plus lbs of rock im just wondering if i should get the fish out of there? start over? what should i do??

 

[kpiotrowski]

I wouldn't rush to remove the fish. Just keep testing your water and if you don't have a test kit, as long as the snail is alive the fish are fine..but get test kits for ammonia and nitrite NOW. as long as there is not going to be much live rock die-off you should be fine....but the opposite can be true and if you get alot of live rock die-off you better have a few hundred gallons of salt mix handy for some major and frequent water changes.

 

[Peppie]

Was his rock alive and had been in an established tank? If it was, How long was the rock out of water during the transfer? Do you have a test kit?
Do you have fresh salt water made up? if so how much? Do you have a sand bed? Or bare bottom?

If his tank was established you may be alright. You will probably have a small cycle. You need to test the water daily. If your peram. get to high you will need to do water changes.

Clown fish are pretty hardy. The snail might be in question.
Others will chim in when you post some answers to the above Qs

 

[tyclark88]

allright so half the rock came out of a healthy established tank,the rest from the local reef store,all rock kept wet, warm and swapped quick, used all ro water sg of 1.024 roughly 1in sand bed of new "not live" sand, i do have a test kit, yesterday perameters were... PH 7.8, AMMO 2.0ppm, No2 .5ppm, and No3 20ppm , will test agian and post, i have plenty of salt and ro water ,
lighting 4 55w power compacts 2 actinic 2 daylighter's
turbo snail is slow moving
clowns seem fine

 

[tyclark88]

so todays tests show
ph 7.8
ammo 1.0 ppm
No2 1.0 ppm
No3 40 ppm

 

[returnofsid]

With the results you're showing, you are experiencing a cycle. Unfortunately, during this cycle, your fish are suffering. Ammonia burns their gills, making it difficult for them to breath.

 

[kpiotrowski]

your ammonia levels are comming down fast. 2ppm is not good, 1ppm a day later is nice to see but still not good. nitrite of 1ppm not cool either and how fast you are building nitrates says you do have alot of the good bacteria in place. Personaly I would do a large water change like 50 to 70% cuz thats alot of nitrate you want to get rid of and will siginificantly help with ammonia and nitrite. if you choose to use any chemical ammonia removers ( blockers) like amequel keep good strong water movement and suface aggitation and add them at the beggining of your light cycle. they really drop the o2 levels! Personaly I only use ammonia blockers when I cant do a good water change and I don't worry about ammonia and nitrite levels below .5 when cycling.

keep us updated!

 

[BigAl07]

As stated you are cycling and it's brutal on the fish. Even if they survive they will most likely have a shortened life because of the organ damage from the cycle. Here's the low-down to what's happening to your fish.

Ammonia - 1.0ppm (any reading >0 is too much for your livestock)

Ammonia is toxic at very low levels so you need to address this asap! Ammonia becomes more toxic as pH increases as well as when the temp increases so keep this in mind too.

NO2 - 1ppm (again any reading >0 is too much)
Nitrite is toxic to fish and in weakened/compromised instances is deadly. Often times a fish suffering from Nitrite Poisoning will ultimate succumb to other ailments (stress, parasite etc). In addition to causing extreme stress on the animal elevated levels of Nitrite can cause a burning of the skin in which you see reddening of the skin and excess mucous being produced.

Because each component in itself is dangerous to your animals during a cycle you're subjecting them to BOTH of these at the same time. It's just not a good idea to "let it ride and hope for the best". If I woke up in your shoes I would acclimate these animals to another tank (friends house, LFS or anywhere but this tank) and let the tank cycle correctly with no livestock. There are several non-living organics way to cycle a tank and if you need help just post back and we can get you in the right direction.

Hang in there and you'll get through it to have a thriving tank in a little while.

 

[Krish]

I agree...Especially ammonia (and even nitrite) is harmful to your livestock. I'd try to relocate them temporarily. I know 1 ppm of ammonia and nitrite isn't much and it is quite possible for you to add some sort of "bacteria in a bottle" in there to increase your aerobic bacteria population which may work in a very short time, but couldn't say 100% for sure. I tend to lean away from things like this so don't have much experience with them in saltwater aquariums...

 

[kpiotrowski]

Lets not scare the fish crap out of this guy lol. He is trying to cycle a tank and save a couple of clowns. he has to do a good water change to lower those nitrates even if the fish are out. the 40ppm nitrate proves there is alot of bacteria in place converting the ammonia and nitrite so I wouldn't waste money on bacteria in a bottle in his case. Just doing a large water change for now and stop feeding a few days is the most cost effective and may just be all he needs since he should do a large water change regardless because of high nitrates = no extra cost.

 

[BigAl07]

with all due respect kpiotrowski I'm not trying to scare him but at the same time I'm also not willing to risk it and wait either. He was given some bad advice by someone and is now on the track to getting some solid advice. I gave rock solid advice based on facts and laced with some experience. After that I suggested what I would do if I were in his shoes. It's up to him to decide how to proceed from this point on but I don't know that taking the cost effective route is the best one for long-term success. The idea of "may just be all he needs" is a bit more of a gamble than I'm willing to take on someone else's tank.

All I can do is answer how I'd handle the situation and then hope for the best possible outcome. Yes I tend to be more cautious but in my experience this had returned some great results for me and how I do things. YMMV.

 

[returnofsid]

Sometimes, the most cost effective answer, while might be the best answer for the wallet, isn't the best answer for the fish, that are suffering through a cycle.

 

[kpiotrowski]

and what makes forms both a great place to turn to...and sometimes a confusing place is all the different "ways to skin a cat". I don't disagree with any of the above, just stating what I would do. Sometimes you got to let things ride out a bit. I gave my opinion based on what his tank is doing. building nitrates fast, ammonia comming down and nitrite rising. I personaly would be very concerned...but my first action would be the water change and see what happens next.

 

[Krish]

At this point it's up to the "tyclark88" to use whichever advice he feels suits him best. Yes, fish can tolerate a bit of ammonia and nitrite especially hardy fish like damsels which a clown is, but inverts don't do well. They may all even survive the ordeal, but still doesn't make it the right thing to do. Really, no livestock should be in there until ammonia and nitrite have dropped off especially the inverts. This is why they have the raw shrimp method...To avoid the use of livestock. IMO I look at it like having a baby live in a room with smokers. Yea it will probably survive, but look at the damage it will do. Why expose fish and inverts to toxic ammonia and nitrite if it can be avoided? Because they are cheap? Not a good reason. Also, water changes will do nothing short of temporarily diluting the problem. If there isn't sufficient bacteria in the tank then a water change isn't going to add it. It will take time for the necessary bacteria to populate the tank which is what the tank needs.

JMHO


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[kpiotrowski]

I hear ya krish! Many people would think we are crazy treating our fish as beloved pets. I too feel guilty from time to time capturing living things and jailing them in our sorry excuses for the natural habitat we took them away from. heck, I even name my larger fish that have personalities. Once we aquire a fish we have a responsablitly to care for it the best we can. I do the best I can, I change much water, buy good equiptment, feed high quality foods.............but back to this guys crappy water situation, don't you think a large water change is in order hear regardless of what he will do with his fish.

 

[Krish]

Definitely if the fish and inverts stay in as they say, "Dilution is the solution to pollution." Well I rather, "Dilution is the temporary solution to pollution."


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[tyclark88]

Wow, first off thanks to everyone that replied, all great information. I did do an eight gallon water change the night that i first posted this so 2 nights ago i just got thru checking my water and ph is at 7.8, ammo .25 nitri .25 nitra 5 ppm , so were right on track the clowns seem to be doing really well no weird behavior or anything out of the ordinary i did loose the one snail that i had in there, God rest lil garys shell.

one more thing about adding live to early, livestock aside could it do anything to the longevity of the tank it self ?? rock bacteria ??

 

[BigAl07]

Nothing really. The tank will balance aka reach an equilibrium where the bacteria will colonize in direct proportion to the bioload placed on the tank. Even if everything in your tank expired (not wishing for that) it wouldn't cause long-term effects on the bacterial colony of the tank. The only way to really harm that aspect (not only but likely) is to add chemicals/medication to while the bacteria out, have a salinity or heat problem to cause the bacteria to expire, or to leave the tank fallow with no organics to feed the bacteria at which time they would die off to match the bioload of the tank. That's why we stock slowly in the beginning and with each new tank addition (fish etc). As you add "Load" to the tank (things that poop mostly) you need to let the bacteria of the tank to colonize and increase to meet the new demand.

Sorry you lost your snail "gary". It happens to the best of us.

Just go slow, test often and be prepared to "Soften" the effects of the cycle.

 

[mojoreef]

No tyclark88 all that does is add stress to the critters that have to go through it, so their might be a chance that the clowns might have some issues down the road if they make it.

Mojo

 

[jetmech]

so their might be a chance that the clowns might have some issues down the road if they make it.

Mojo

I suggest you get them into therapy before it's too late and they kill you in your sleep! Don't risk it!!