What to do for Ich

[Airphotog]

I have no room for a hospital tank and my Sailfin has picked up Ich. Is there any safe meds that will work in a reef?

 

[returnofsid]

No.

Any reef safe medication, will not kill Ich. If it's strong enough to kill Ich, it'll kill other inverts in your tank.

Your choices are to let the fish suffer, or treat it properly, in a QT tank. You'll actually need to treat ALL the fish in your tank, in QT, with hyposalinity. During this treatment, you'll also need to leave the display tank fishless, for 8 weeks, to kill all the Ich that are in the tank. Ich will die, with no fish to parasitize, but it'll take about 8 weeks.

Read through the stickies, in Lee's Marine Fish Forum, for a couple different treatment methods, to treat Ich. All have to be done outside the display tank and all require treating ALL fish.

In fact, I'll move this thread to Lee's Marine Fish Discussion Forum, where it's more appropriate and will get the best attention, from Lee.

 

[DTECH07]

I've had success with Herbtana and Artemiss from Microbe-Lift, I used on cap of each a day the Herbtana in the morning 8-9am and the Artemiss at night at 8-9am 12hrs different. I only used it for 3-4 days not the full 10days because i just needed to give a boost not a FULL destruction. I then ensured that every morning that food was soaked in Garlic, also had Veagie clips with SEAWEED for me 2 fishes but there are others. Tangs have a natural STRESS ISSUE and it's on us to find out what it is. In sort for the fish i've had they need a little more TLC than most. If they are not able to SNACK ALL DAY they can develop as i like to can STRESS BUMPS (ICH) or if there is another tank mate that stresses them this can occur. The Microbe-Lift was only used twice after that MY TANG was fine but a QT tank can provent server tank damage due to over use of meds and treatments, i've just been LUCKY i guess or well read not sure. That's my 2 cents on the matter.

Dtech07

 

[DTECH07]

That's one cap full "Just in case it wasnt understood".

 

[leebca]

The DTECH07 post is riddled with misunderstandings and lack of knowledge of the parasite which causes Marine Ich.

There are no known alternate non-prescription cures of marine fish of this parasite than the ones presented here: http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15/curing-fish-marine-ich-50933/

Imagine for just one moment what it would mean to have a cure of Marine Ich in a reef tank! It would make the front page of all the major marine journals. And why not have it independently tested for a few hundred dollars with a published report? Because it doesn't pass such testing.

What is usually a part of the myth when using such products and methos is that the parasite either was not properly diagnosed as being there at the start and finish, or the hobbyist ignores the other symptoms.

Follow the guidelines given in the above post. A quarantine tank is inexpensive and a piece of equipment necessary if someone wants to be in the hobby for long.

 

[DTECH07]

I know that Ich is always present and the condition of your tank and other factors will lead to stress that can result in a Ich and serveral other immunity issues. The question from the beginning was "What to do about Ich" and I gave what work for me. It's up to Airhotog who has a lot sense and knowledge to make a choice. My fish that had this outbreak are fine and healthy, also what I have learned "not being a EXPERT" is that the process I did WORKED! So since we are cramming a VERY complex enviroment into a area we feel we want in our homes even into a zoo will NEVER full "on so many levels" work as it does out where it came from The SEA. It's like thinking you can put a nuclear explosion in a glass jar and think you can FULLY control it or even understand it. So what works for me my not EVER work for someone else but it's working for me.

Dtech07

 

[returnofsid]

Okay, without trying to start a debate, I'd like to try to clear some things up.

I know that Ich is always present and the condition of your tank and other factors will lead to stress that can result in a Ich and serveral other immunity issues.

Dtech07

This is simply not true and is a very wide spread myth, involving Ich.

Ich is NOT present in all aquariums, nor is it present in all marine fish. Ich can be completely eradicated from any marine system, if done correctly.

Another wide spread myth is the use of Garlic. Not only does Garlic have no beneficial effects, on Marine Fish, it's actually been shown to cause organ damage.

There are actually A LOT of Ich related Myths. Most of them stem from the idea that Marine Ich can be treated, the same way as Freshwater Ich, which just isn't the case. Here's a write up, I've done, on a couple of different forums, after doing a lot of research and reading. It outlines what does, and does NOT work, with Marine Ich. A lot of this information was gleaned, from Lee, along with several studies, done by people who actually specialize in Marine diseases and have done the actual research.

Marine Ich Primer

I figured I'd start a discussion on Ich, in Marine fish. The reason I'm doing this is because there's a lot of myths and mis-information, regarding Ich, in Marine Fish, as apposed to Ich in Freshwater fish. I figured some of these myths needed to be "brought to light." Lately, on a couple of Reef Forums, a lot of new hobbyists have been struggling with Ich. It seems I've been reading 2 or 3 new threads every day. Unfortunately, some members are giving out bad information, which will only make matters worse. So I decided to start this thread, hoping it'll lead someone in the proper direction!!

To start with, Ich is a parasite that can infect Marine and Freshwater fish, HOWEVER, it's two totally different parasites. Some treatments for Freshwater Ich won't kill Saltwater Ich.

Marine Ich=Cryptocaryon irritans
Freshwater Ich=Ichthyophthirius multifiliis

It's important to properly identify Marine Ich, before treatment begins. Just as in Freshwater fish, Ich will present itself in a way that looks like someone sprinkled salt on your fish. It will come and go, with the Trophont, ProTomont and Tomont stages of the life cycle. Trophont is when the parasite is actually attached to the fish and usually lasts 3-7 days. After this, the parasite falls from the fish and lives in the substrate (ProTomont stage) for a period of hours. Then, during the Tomont stage, the parsite encysts, dividing into hundreds of "daughter" parasites, called Tomites. Tomites are non-infectious and this stage can last from 3-28 days. After this Tomite period, the eggs hatch, becoming Tomonts and go in search of a Fish Host.

Another interesting thing about Marine Ich, is that it seems to drop off Host Fish, AND search out Host Fish at "night." This creates a problem for the fish. Most Marine fish chose the same spot to "sleep," every night. Because of this, the Ich parasite falls off of the fish, goes through it's reproduction cycle, and easily finds the same Host Fish, when it's ready.

Here are some "treatments," that don't work.

Increasing temperature.

While increasing temperature is a common, and somewhat effective way to treat Freshwater Ich, it does absolutely nothing to help with Marine Ich. There's some studies to show that it "might" speed up the life cycle of the parasite, but even these studies are controversial. Marine Ich also has a higher "optimal temperature," so raising the temperature could actually benefit the parsite. Raising water temperature also has the negative effect of lowering the oxygen content of the water.

Garlic

While garlic has been shown to have immunity boosting properties, among Freshwater Fish, it has been shown to NOT have the same ability among Marine Fish. Studies have shown that garlic "may" inhibit the parasites ability to find fish, by smell, in Marine fish, so "might" result in a reduced ability to parasitize. Garlic is also thought to "possibly" increase a Marine Fish's appetite, keeping the fish healthy and able to "fight off" Ich, but even that is only anecdotal and hasn't been reproduced, scientifically, in many studies. Garlic HAS been shown to cause liver damage, among Marine Fish.

UV Sterilization

The use of a UV Sterilizer will reduce the number of Ich parasites, but not significantly. The problem with UV is it will only kill stuff that passes over the light, and ONLY if the UV light is strong enough and the life form passes over the light slow enough for the UV Strength to kill it. The Ich parasite is only in the water column for a short time, while dropping off of a Host Fish, or in search of a Host Fish. It can only pass through the UV sterilizer during the period of time that it's in the water column. Unfortunately, UV will only kill a small portion of the Ich parasites, IF the UV sterilizer is powerful enough (wattage) and the flow rate is slow enough.

Marine Ich is present in all Marine Fish and is in all Marine Tanks and is a result of a fish being stressed

A huge myth!!! Research has shown that, with proper QT procedures and treatment, Ich can be eradicated from a Marine Aquarium. Without a Fish Host, Marine Ich will die. However, the life cycle of Ich has to be taken into account, so the Ich parasite needs to be void of a Fish Host for a period of 6-8 weeks.

Now I'll outline some SUCCESSFUL treatments for Marine Ich.

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity treatment is probably the most successful and least stressful treatment, if done properly. Unfortunately, this can't be done in a reef tank. However, it can be done in a Marine Fish Only tank, with a caveat or two.

Hyposalinity is treatment by lowering the salinity of saltwater, to a level that it will kill the parasite, but NOT kill the fish. In fact, lowering salinity eases a fishes ability to "respire," and increases oxygens ability to mix with the water.

Changes in salinity do need to be done correctly, as to not stress the fish. Lowering the salinity can be done quicker than raising the salinity. Typically the salinity can be dropped from 1.025 to 1.009 in a matter of a couple of days, without negatively effecting the fish. However, once treatment is over, the salinity should be raised back up to 1.025 slower (over the period of a week.) Treatment needs to be done for a period of 6-8 weeks, OR at least 2 weeks after all visible signs of Ich are gone. At that point, salinity can be slowly raised, over a 1 week period. During this same time, the display tank must remain "fallow," or fishless. Without any Fish Hosts, the Ich parasite will die.

1.009 has been shown to be the level where Ich can no longer survive, without negatively effecting the fish. Again, this cannot be done in a reef tank, as motile and inmotile inverts will die. In a Fish Only system, this can be done, however, beneficial bacteria, micro fauna, micro flora, amphipods, copepods, etc. will perish. Those things will re-populate, over time.

Hyposalinity is best done in an established QT tank.

Copper

Copper treatment CANNOT be done in a reef tank and shouldn't be done in a FO (Fish Only) Tank. The copper will leach into the live rock, sand substrate, etc. Later, the copper will leach back out of these materials, poisoning the tank. Copper is very fatal to any Marine Inverts.

Copper treatment needs to be done very carefully and with a very accurate Copper Test Kit. At too low of dosage, it won't kill Ich. At too high of dosage, it kills fish. It's very important to follow the manufacturer directions AND have an accurate test kit.

Transfer Method

This method is effective, but a lot of work...lol.

It involves having 2 available tanks. Each day, the fish are moved from one tank, to another. In between, each tank is emptied, cleaned and refilled with Saltwater. The idea is that the Ich parasite will be left behind, in the used water. This process should be done for a period of 10 days. This treatment is also quite stressful to the fish, with being moved every day. Also, the display still needs to remain fallow for 6-8 weeks.

Here's some further reading, for those interested.
Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part I by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm
Garlic: What has been Studied Versus What has been Claimed by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com

 

[DTECH07]

Yes and I read this article when my fish tang had issues, I know that marine fish are living in under nourished and do to STRESS is the leading factor in the outbrake of issue for them. I have also learned that there are serveral Vitamins that Marine fish don't receive that are missing due to a lack of the current Salt Fish community. As I posted I purchased my tank and have made my mistakes thus far and from that as i'm sure those of you that have several more years than I do in this cn say the same, but the question was "What do you do about Ich" It my not be present always "Flat worm can be which is another subject" but it was a general question I gave my input not to expect to be Quote un Quote insulted. I'm just starting out and this is a FORUM not a school and if like you like to correct me talk not throw. that works for me if that's not how you can operate then that's where we'll have to disagree till i catch up with the "EXPERTS". I don't debate and understand that YOU want accurate INFO but I like to communicate not insult when I speak.

Dtech07

 

[returnofsid]

I apologize, if in any way, my response seemed insulting. It was not meant to come across that way.

 

[DTECH07]

I was not you at all and my SKIN is a lot thicker than that my friend:eyebrows::becky:. I'm only saying that there is a BASE line for care in a tank and so far I must be on it. My tank is going on 5 months and I have a few "Expert Only" things in it (not for everyone) but thats due to reading and question I post, Not you but correct my comments don't attack me. I'm a NEWBEE and loving it, I enjoy RF and the wealth of knowledge I have received and to grow and develope in this hobbie. If that's not the purpose of some who reply to a thread then expect a response from me stating how I took it. Again RF is a GREAT SITE with a more knowledge in the staff and others who SUPPORT than I can dream of. Thaks RS for your help I just had to say my peace.

Dtech07

 

[abushr]

I have a yellow, hippo & sailfin tang....and whenever they get stressed, you can guarantee a few ick spots show up. I use Herbtana by Microbe-Lift. I'd had great success with it. They also make Artemiss for bacterial issues. I really like both products....it's a more homeopathic type of treatment.

 

[returnofsid]

I have a yellow, hippo & sailfin tang....and whenever they get stressed, you can guarantee a few ick spots show up. I use Herbtana by Microbe-Lift. I'd had great success with it. They also make Artemiss for bacterial issues. I really like both products....it's a more homeopathic type of treatment.

Here's the thing, and again, not trying to debate, but....

You claim you've had great success with the products you've mentioned. However, you also admit that, whenever your fish are stressed, they show signs of Ich.

To me, this isn't success at all. Your fish are still having to deal with the Ich parasite. Obviously, the products you mentioned, didn't kill the parasite. There are much better ways, which will enable you to completely eradicate Ich. Then, when your fish are stressed, they won't have to deal with even additional stress, of Ich, as there won't be any Ich parasites, in your system.

 

[mcoomer]

Back to the sick Sailfin. How much ich do you see on the fish? If you're only seeing a few spots and the fish is otherwise healthy I'd start putting Selcon soaked nori in the tank. Make sure the fish is fat and happy and that your water is in top condition. I've done this in the past at the first sign of ich and have found that the fish can generally withstand a minor parasitic infestation. You have to watch though and if its condition begins to deteriorate or if the ich keeps returning then it's off to the QT.

Mike

 

[WABlonde]

We've had zero luck with tangs overcoming ich. Even with hyposalinity. I'd offer to keep your fish in our spare hospital but I'm afraid we'd just end up killing him... Best of luck!

 

[leebca]

It is very important to me that when others read threads that they learn the truth and facts as best the hobby knows. Those who post alternative means of dealing with Marine Ich are not erradicating it -- they are just prolonging the stress on the fish. Having a parasite is stressful and garlic, vitamins, and good nutrition doesn't cure the fish, nor does it kill the parasite.

For the sake of the fish, treat it, kill off all the Marich Ich using a known scientific procedure.

My posts are not meant to be insulting, but I'll call out when someone is wrong and if the recipient feels insulted, then leave the forum. I'd rather have someone missing than to have miss-information spread around.

I've closed this thread. Begin a new thread with a new subject if the original poster wishes.