Where do my nitrattes keep coming from?

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Clownguy

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Oct 15, 2003
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Alright here is my situation, I have a 150 gallon sps only tank with about 200 lbs of live rock, 2 250 watt HQI mh w/ 14k Hami's and 4 actinic VHO. My protein skimmer is a kent nautilus and pulls out a lot of crud. I have a sump that use to hold about 6" of sand, but I recently pulled all of the sand out and there is only a 1/2" in the front 2" of my tank that I clean every week with my 35 gallon RO water change. I feed every other day or third day with either brine shrimp or formula two. I have six fish. I can't seem to get my nitrates below 30-40 ppm. I have a dual chamber Ca reactor and run carbon. Does anyone have ideas on where my nitrates are coming from and how to get rid of them. Thanks in advance.

Chris
 
Boy that's a really good one Chris. Did you check for nitrates before pulling out the DSB in your sump? Do you think that maybe that helped out more than you thought with denitrification? I've never had a DSB so I don't really know, but I've heard a lot of talk about them. What about your LR. I've heard that over time they become exhausted (if that is the right term) and must be boiled or put in a dark tank for a while for it to be useful again biologically. How long has the tank been setup? Also, have you added anything new to the tank recently like maybe some LR that wasn't completely cured? Just a few thoughts I had. I Hope it can spark something helpful for you to maybe find your problem...Good luck with it.
 
Could the rock have taken up the nitrates and now be releasing them? not sure if thats how it works, but I thought I remembered that being discussed before.........
 
What type of salt?
What is nitrate reading on your ro water pure?
What " " saltwater" mix before putting it in?
Is is used live rock?
What kind of test kit are you using?
 
Let's see where to start:
Mike the biggest fish I have is only 3" and the rest are much smaller 1" or so.

Krish I only pulled out the sand after a couple years of having high nitrates. The rock is probably three to four years old and so it could be built up in the rocks. he tank has been setup four 4 years or so. Nothing new has been added recently.

Stan the rocks have been in the tank for a while so they definitly could have stored up.

Steve I vary between tropic marin and kent. Nitrate readings are 0 in pure RO and w/ salt. And yes the rock is pretty old. I am using salifert test kits

Chris
 
I think the same thing. Or do you have any live rock in sump that is exposed to air? Or anything that may be acting like a biological filter? Maybe the carbon? How long do you leave it in?
 
I replace the carbon about every two weeks. The rock is very old so I hate to say it but I have to agree with you guys that it may be the culprit. I just have to figure out how to cook my rock because most of my colonies are attached. Maybe half of the batch at a time. and I will just have to break off the colonies.

Chris
 
Every two weeks seems like a lot. Do you always leave carbon in your tank? I know many people will have a filter going for water movement but place carbon in it periodically.
 
Although it's possible the rock may be clogged with detritus and causing your high nitrates, it should be explained why this happens.

Rock doesn't soak up nitrates, and it won't hold nitrates either; those are both urban-reef legends. Live rock will decrease nitrates because bacteria living inside the rock break the nitrate molecule apart; which turns it into a harmless gas that escapes into the air. As ammonia and nitrites enter the rock they're consumed by nitrifying bacteria, which will ultimately turn them into nitrates. These bacteria, like any other, require oxygen to live. Since all of these bacteria are breathing oxygen, the deeper you go into the rock the less oxygen there is; since the outer bacteria are eating it. Eventually there comes a point where there is no dissolved oxygen left to breathe, so the bacteria must find another source; and that's where nitrates come into the picture. The bacteria break apart the molecule in order to steal its oxygen and continue working. It's for this reason that an anaerobic (without oxygen) environment is required for bacteria to remove nitrates. It's essentially the same bacteria we find elsewhere in the tank and filters, but in that environment they are forced to act a little differently. When the rock becomes clogged with detritus it certainly doesn't hinder the anaerobic environment; in fact it helps it by blocking oxygen-rich water. That's also why it's a problem though; the water never makes it inside the rock.

There are two ways to clean the rock if it becomes that way. One is to actually boil it; which works but isn't recommended. The second is to simply remove the rock and place it in a dark, well filtered tank and leave it alone for a few weeks. In this time the bacteria, pods, worms and whatever else will go to work on it and clean it up. It generally happens on tanks that are either overstocked, overfed or don't have adequate water flow.

Before removing your rock I would look around and see if there's anything in the tank that's trapping detritus, or a place where nitrifying bacteria could be living. This could be a filter sock that isn't replaced often (simply cleaning them sometimes doesn't kill the bacteria, you must scrub them or swap them out with dried out socks), or a filter cartridge that isn't replaced but is simply re-filled.

Keep us posted,
Clayton
 
Very informative Clayton...Thanks for explaining! If you think it may be detritus building up settling somewhere, maybe he can try an old trick I use to do when I had a huge build up of detritus from insufficient flow, and using a turkey baster just wouldn't cut it. I would put a polishing cartridge (or you can use whatever micron filter sock etc you have) in my canister filter, turn it on to polish the water as I used a powerhead (held in my hand) to blow off everything. You'll be amazed at what will come off of the rocks. I even tipped over a few in the process(LOL). I usually leave the polishing cartridge in the canister for about 12 hrs or so after until the water clears up. I know it removes a lot because I've burned up my old H.O.T Magnum filter a while back because the cartrigde became so encrusted with junk that it wouldn't allow any more flow through the filter thus the reason for my magnum 350 replacement. If it wouldn't affect anything in your tank, it may be worth a try, just to see if it can lift any junk off of your rocks that may be suffocating it...Just a thought
 
I just might have to try that with a ph and a filter sock.

Thanks,
Chris
 
Clayswim I got to disagree with ya brother :p
Rock doesn't soak up nitrates, and it won't hold nitrates either; those are both urban-reef legends.
Sure it will, it has to or it wont denitrify and thus wont hold that strain of bacteria
Live rock will decrease nitrates because bacteria living inside the rock break the nitrate molecule apart; which turns it into a harmless gas that escapes into the air.
Very rarely happens this way, to many variables and conditions that stop that process.
As ammonia and nitrites enter the rock they're consumed by nitrifying bacteria, which will ultimately turn them into nitrates
Ammonia and Nitrites never directly enter the rock, detritus and particulate matter lands on the rock form here nitrifing bacteria removes certain ions to be reduced and passes down biproducts, nitrate being but one of them.
The bacteria break apart the molecule in order to steal its oxygen and continue working. It's for this reason that an anaerobic (without oxygen) environment is required for bacteria to remove nitrates
Nitrate reducing bacteria are fuculative so they can either fix oxygen or directly fix nitrates, so direct fixing of nitrates becomes its method for respiration.

LR has an advantage over other forms of bacterial filtration (ie: sand) because of it shape (no bottom) and bacterial action (birth/death/creation of enzymes and so on) it will force what fills its voids to the surface, from here gravity play a role in pushing the end products out of the rock. We call this shedding, and it can been seen very well when putting rock in dark light conditions.
Chris once the LR sits on a sand substraight it looses a couple of its advantages. The shape is now gone and it has a bottom (the sand), its bacterial action now becomes a part of the sand bed itself (asimulated), the tugor still works to a point but the gravity is gone so most of the detritus will actually be pulled from the bed into the rock. So when you look at LR hat is sitting on a sand bed you have to concider the rock to be just and extension of the sand, nothing more.
So in looking at the LR issue as it stand right now I think it would be safe to say that the LR is saturated with most form of N and P to the point at which it has lost most of its normal functions bacterially. The presence of ammonia in the rock (anywhere in the rock) will inhibit the production of an enzyme that is required for nitrate reduction, with this gone none will occur (dont worry it happens to almost all DSB's and simular) what happens instead is that the nitrate is turned into ammonium instead and just recycled once again. I would imagine that this is what is happening in your tank and has been for a while, this condition will eventually make the rock usuless and truely turn the rock into a producer instead of a reducer.
No problem though it can be fixed. Not having the rock on the sand is going to return the rock to a more normal conditon but it is going to take a long time as the bacterial filtration is very slow. If it were me (and it has been a few times, lol) I would remove a couple of rocks and boil them in very hot water (boil for a long time), this boiling will remove most of the crud in the rock through vapor transmission. Yes it will also kill all bacteria and everything else in and on the rock to. But when you reintroduce the rock into the tank it will be like putting a brand new vacant apartment building in to a over crowed neighborhood. It will be quickly repopulated by all the critters that once inhabitated it.
What this does is reduce the bioload on the remaining rock in the tank and allows it a bit more time (with out effecting the water quality) to recover. To summerize I would remove a couple of rocks and boil them, then allow them a month or so to repopulate and then do a couple of more. You shouldnt have to do all the rock, maybe just half and slowly over a period of time. Do this until you have regained your water quality and always rememeber to blow of the rocks as part of your regular husbandry.

Hope it helps


Mike
 
Very informative professsor Mike M.D (LOL) I'm glad you've got that computer up and running smoothly so you can give your input.
 
I know this is an old thread, but have you checked the nitrate level of your RO water. I have an RO system for drinking in my house and it runs about 10 for nitrates, so I bought an ro/di for my tank and it is at 0.
 

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