Who made PO4 the Devil?

[jlehigh]

Calling all bio-chemists...

My 280gal SPS tank is now 14months old. I maintain consistent levels when it comes to PH, CA, ALK, MG, and all forms of amonia (0) .

I am frusterated because I go through cycles where about 40% of my colonies brown out! Then over the following weeks the color SLOWLY returns and I have typpically a few weeks to bask in the glory of it's beauty until the next brown out.

Typically brown-outs and algae blooms for that matter are attributed in the hobby to NUTRIENTS. Nitrates, yea but when we think SPS brown-out we think PO4. Thanks to a recent article we understand PO4 and it's many benefits/drawbacks but I strongly believe it is not the case in my tank.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.php

Why? Salifert can't find any looking in the water colum, close to rocks, "deadzones" ect ect and I have literally zero visible algae outside of encrusting types and the rare bubble. I understand PO4 comes in two forms only one of which Salifert detects but I also don't have any PO4 symptoms other than my brown-outs.

I have not identified any behaviours or changes consistent with my brown-outs and Yes I do bi-weekly 25-30% water changes.

So folks, who made PO4 the devil? If PO4 IS the devil then what are the demon minions causing my problem..?? Does anyone know other causes for the browning of SPS corals?? (can you tell I'm grumpy)

I have posted about browning in the past and I think it generated as much interest as the last Jackie Chan movie, but this is tormenting me enough for one more cry for information...

 

[big t]

Maybe you should try out the zeovit system? I am thinking of trying it out soon.

 

[mojoreef]

P is one of those things our tanks cant live with out, and at the same thing something that can frustrate the heck out of us. P comes in more then just 2 forms.
>Dissolved inorganic phosphate= This form is a tough one, because it is dissolved it is biologically available and is used up very quickly by algae, bacteria, corals and a host of many other things. It comes to our tanks via, foods, additives, top off water, some salt mixes, and from the gills and kidneys of fish
>Particulate inorganic phosphate = This is P is a solid form but still not bound to an organic. We find this form in our tanks as fish and critter waste, Precipated ionically onto various surfaces (sand, rock, metal). Comes in as food mainly, but also as bound to LR and sand.
>Dissolved organic phosphate = This from of P is short lived in our tanks as it is biologically available to most critters, bacteria, algae and so on go after it like candy, corals/clams also absorb it.
>Particulate organic phosphate = this type again is usually generated by fish waste, food and so on and is usually bound up pretty quick.
You have to look at this nutrient as something that is going to always be in a state of flux in our tanks. The flux is P basically traveling through the forms mentioned above, while small ammounts of it are used up as energy along the path. Now our test kits are able to measure dissolved inorganic P, so in testing for it we are just capturing a small picture of the level on its many paths through out our tank.
To give you some idea of how it enters the tank.
Foods> a big one here of coarse,that is why we should always look to what we use as food. Some quick examples: Phytoplankton = almost all organic P, most flake foods ore heavy in P, even fresh seafood is presoaked in a P solution to help preserve it (soak it in Ro) and so on.
Additives: many additives these days purposely use nutrients such as P as carriers. Things that comes into mind are biologically available calcium and simular, look att he labels of your additives and see if they use glocuse and simular as the carrier.
Sand and LR: In nature phosphate bind naturally and very quickly to calcium, once it does so it looks for a clean seed surface, sand and clean rock surfaces are the first place they go to. The absorbsion of P like this happens very quickly and this form of P is inorganically bound to the sand until it is released by bacterial action or the lowering of PH. Thus that bag of sand even though it hasnt seen your aquarium water yet is saturated. It shouldnt be a problem until it is release by bacteria (looking for food) or the PH it the area it is lowers to the point that the sand melts (anaerobic zone).
Media : for folks that use reactors and simular. I have seen alot of media's even though they advertise no P still have them, some a very high levels. Folks that use argonite sand or CC are going to get P from from it basically by releasing it the same way discribed above. For this do a P test on the effluent.
Carbon: alot of carbons still have P as they wash it with a P solution, so mix up a P test and then drop in a chunk of the carbon, look for a color change as the result.
Top off water: as I discribed above the process for P binding to calcium and then seeding out onto sand, well this is an actual process used by municipalities to clean calcium deposits out of thier piping systems. They inject P and sand into the main pipes to remove calcium deposits (scale) on the interior of thier pipes. The result is not only P that comes naturally from our water but alot more that comes from ths process.
Plastics: yep even these, Most all plastic products use plastisizers in the making of the products, stuff like PVC and so on. Ever look into an old pipe?? were they clean??
Salt mixes: some Artifical salt mixes contain P other contain N, all salts either contian one or the other prior to being mixed. With N with have established bacterial ssytem to deal with it, in regards to P we dont, so look to the mix as a source
So anyway as you can see thier are many many ways for P to enter the tank, some ways we can control or limit and others we are just stuck with, and to be honest we do need some P. So what do we do?? Again we have to look at the pathways of P. In doing so we see a nutrient that is desired and takes on many forms as it is bound, eaten and used. Because of this it is always in a state of flux, as in always changing bewteen the forms listed above. So now knowing that P will be bound up (mostly by bacteria) we can live with it under the understanding that we have just enough bacteria and simular to keep what ever is available organically bound. We get into trouble when the flux has sharp peeks and valleys. In peeks we have introduced more P to the tank then can be bound, thus it becomes available for stuff like algae (zoox) to use up and we get blooms. The valleys are when thier is not enough P available and bacterial populations and simular die off for the lack of food, this will then trigger a peek as the P they have bound up is released through thier death. So the key word here is stability and being aware of what form and amount of P you are putting in the tank. Go through the products you put in the tank and test them yourself for P. When feeding and useing other products that contain P (we have to add them) make sure you keep the ammount consistant.
A quick example: You look at your fish and feel it is hungrey and you didnt feed yesterday, so you add more food to make up for it. Well youo just gave that stability pendulum a push, now the bacterial population is going to increase to meet the extra food now available, well once it is gone that extra population is going to die off, Soooo now that the pendulum swings the other way and will continue swinging until it once again hits the point of stability. This example can happen from a variety of sources, new carbon if it has P, feeding phyto, ph swings, dosing of certain products and so on.

So after you check the products you use, look for stability, keep the pendulum still. Anyway thats a lot of babble for this early in the morning so more coffie is now needed. Hope I didnt make it more confusing

Mike

 

[jlehigh]

This was an excellent explenation of P Mike. I think this one post somed up the entire thread discussion on it.

I take allot of precautions based on the thoughts you re-summarized above. I am just having trouble finding the source I guess. I think the biggest candidate at this point is baking soda.. I use baking soda to maintain my Alk between 10 and 12 DKH.. Would dissovling baking soda in rodi and testing that for P possibly tell me if it is a significant source?

I better apprciate the pendulum theory though... If we have more like 4 forms of P then it would make sense for it to be difficuklt to align the symptoms with the root cause.

 

[mojoreef]

If that is the way you add BS to your tank. Sometimes if you get lasy and dont blow your rocks off you will also get more of the dissolved type to, alot of different factors really. The best things is to test what you put in, make sure it doesnt contain alot of P and then try to keep things as stable as you can.

Mike

 

[reedman]

I have the same thing going on John. Hair algae in the tank with a reading of zero everywhere for the PO4. I tested my topoff water, tank water, water near the algae...nothing. It's in there somewhere, just can't seem to find it. I hate chemistry!

Post if you find something out there John. I would love to solve the issue since hair algae seems to be the bane of my existance right now.

 

[bradreef]

reed and JOhn both have good tanks with good flow.. Look into mikes tank as an example of rock structure. very open so there are no dead spots.. I am planning on only having two big rocks in my tank.. John you have one of the better setups I have seen, My only thing I would change if it was mine would be reduction of rocks. It looks great but there are stacks in corners and places flow gets blocked....

 

[jlehigh]

Yup Reed... Feel my pain.. Of course you dont have browning issues either.. so wierd.

Thanks Brad... I was thinking the SAME thing a few days ago. I'll play with some ideas on the arrangement.. The rocks I have in the back and corners sit on top of a spraybar but there could be ledges and what not that are soaking up the phosphate full paticulate...

 

[Boomer]

How come the other posts in this thread were deleted ??? Mine, at least one of Mojo's and I think 2 of MiddletonMark's ???

 

[steve-s]

Hair algae in the tank with a reading of zero everywhere for the PO4.

The algaes probably using it just as fast as whatever is being added to fuel it, foods most likely. Have you tested the drain off water from the food?

Could also be as pointed out above it's bound up in the rock itself... "cooking" might be an option.

Cheers
Steve

 

[jlehigh]

How come the other posts in this thread were deleted ??? Mine, at least one of Mojo's and I think 2 of MiddletonMark's ???

Hmmm I don't know... Must have been done quick since I didnt see them. :shock:

 

[reedman]

The algaes probably using it just as fast as whatever is being added to fuel it, foods most likely. Have you tested the drain off water from the food?

Yeah Steve. I would say the algae is using it up as fast as it is going in. I make my own food and rinse the seafood before I put it into the blender so I really don't have any liquid. I suppose I could start soaking in RODI and draining off, but I am a bit lazy when it comes to that. I figured I got rid of the PO4 up front when I rinsed the seafood, since there is no other input after that.

Could also be as pointed out above it's bound up in the rock itself... "cooking" might be an option.

Cooking is not really an option I am willing to look into. All my corals are encrusted on the rocks and it would be a huge undertaking that is just not practical for me. Good advice though...just not my path.

 

[tamarindthai]

yes,,why?????

How come the other posts in this thread were deleted ??? Mine, at least one of Mojo's and I think 2 of MiddletonMark's ???

 

[middletonmark]

I dunno, Boomer.
I don't stress it, though

 

[mojoreef]

Hmmm thats weird, None of mine have been deleted. Actually the thread doesnt show any threads deleted (thiers always a record of a deletion or even an edit). Not sure what happened?? I would love to hear your post Boomer and Mark if you have the time could you throw them out again?? I will ask Chuck if he can find out what happened??

With the hair algae folks you have to realize that algae is a very good competitor and has many stratagies to aquire a food source. With most algae problems that I have seen or experenced when no P was dictated it came from one of two sources. Either detritus was collecting with in the algae it self (give it a good blow to see) or it was pulling it right out of the LR substraight. Either one is a tough battle. This is where sometimes you just have to turn to preditation in order to convert the algae into something you can remove (as in something eats it and then poops it and it goes back into the water column. For this I always turned to either a fish (not as efficient) or an Urchin ( best bet). This way the critter is large enough to make an impact.


Mike

 

[reedman]

That's what I am thinking my issue is Mike. I'm going to get another urchin (long spine this time) and see how it goes.

I did find that my temp was running high too. Controller was out of calibration so I was running in the 81-82 range when I thought I was in the 79-80 range. Now I am running in the 78-80 range and the algae doesn't seem to be proliferating. I'm going to continue the water changes and get the urchin anyway.

 

[middletonmark]

Boomer, think that was another thread ...
[?]

 

[Boomer]

No Mark it was here, as I remember reading the posts by brad and big-t (zeovit remark). I also did a search on the three forums we are often on, just in case I was in error. There is one on RC with pics but 0 replies, at least yesterday. I have seen this before, posts vanish, once on reefsanctuary.

Mojo

Yes one of your posts was deleted, as you replied to mark These posts were below big-t post and your long post was not there at the time. So what is missing is in between big-t and your long post

 

[Curtswearing]

Bummer...My post on how to get great coloration out of SPS without sacrificing growth, how to remove algae and never have it come back again, and to ensure that fish never get ich or other problems is gone too.

 

[jlehigh]

Bummer...My post on how to get great coloration out of SPS without sacrificing growth, how to remove algae and never have it come back again, and to ensure that fish never get ich or other problems is gone too.

I needed a Sunday morning laugh Thanks Curt.

Well posting issues asside I would very much like to hear what everyone has to say.

Another question. Do we know which forms of phosphate are most readily used by nussance algae types versus Zoox pigment algae? Reed has an issue with hair type algae but doesnt have an overpopulation of zoox browning his corals. I have ZERO non zoox algae but 5 browned colonies.

I am doing a major water change (80gal), re-plumbing 4 inlets, removing rock, and vaccuming what detritus I can find today.