wholesale to the public?

[diablo]

So when internet companies, local shops, maintenance companies wholesale to the public. what ill effects does that bring to the hobby as a whole?

My thought on it would be that. With people selling at wholesale pricing. Puts a tremendous amount of stress to the common store. With undercutting prices that are marked up for reasons lease, cost of operation, employees, and various other expenses. Without these mark ups there will be no store in your neighborhood. Just one store or no stores anywhere.

So how can the hobby grow if no one can buy a tank? Or if you need a emergency supply and cant get one. Have you noticed that no store carries any dry good any more? Internet pricing has made it impossible for your local store to carry these items. Reason why no new stores opening or closing a year after they open. The prices that are in front of the consumer are higher than. "what they could get it for online" or local shops that what you to come in their door that throw stuff out at cost. Makes it impossible for the start up to cover the cost of opening their store or their lease is outrageous. With a 2 dollar sq ft plus triple net (nnn), A mark up is mandatory for that company to stay in business. So with this being said we are all guilty of trying to save a buck or two. But there is a bigger picture here. The hobby will slow tremendously. If these practices continue or we continue to support them.

Keep in mind I did not mention any names, businesses, companies, clubs. no flame wars here. Just wanted to speak on a subject I have been so quite on for a very long time.

next topic The over saturation effect.

 

[morgan]

all i have to say is that u make a good point but the deiffernce between going to a store and buying online is quiet simple when u buy online u dont know what ur getting or when u will get it in some case. the best thing about a shop is having the option to choose a specimen there could be 10 blue tangs in a 5 tanks and u would get to pick the one that has the brightest colours or slightly yellow ting on the stomach

when u come to corals its beeter agian being able to choose 1 trachy from 40 differnt trachys all of differnt colours u have the choice colour for ur self if u orderd a green trachy off the net it could be a dull green when theres a very bright green one sitting right next to it and u will get sent the dull one

the thing i reackon is haveing the ability to buy a coral or a fish in a shop lets u pic a specimen thats in good condition
i know i only go to fish shops where they keep good water quality and decent lighting
and i can buy cured LR
i dont know what the places in us are like. but theres 3 places close to my house 1 is a collector that sells from his house and fish shop owend by another collector
and a local all purpose pet shop thast now has a marien section and they do great prices and get some pretty good stuff in
a trip to the fish shop is better then surfing online
maybe it just shows that people cant be bothered to drive some where then just click a mouse

 

[dmo]

On the other hand, I and I'm sure many other people in this great hobby would never have gotten started in the first place if it wasn't for the internet pricing.

I do try to buy a certain percentage of consumables and equipment and all livestock from my lfs, I try to see it as promoting good will to those that I will probably need help from in the future

 

[Jobiwan]

I agree with you Diablo, I think the demise of the LFS is tragic, but I also believe it is inevitable that the majority of LFS's are doomed, I call it the Wal Mart effect, it pervades all aspects of our society, not just our hobby. As a child my family shopped at a number of mom and pop grocery stores, local small town hard wares, small town clothing stores, there was a sense of community as we all supported our neighbors and their families by shopping locally. Now everything is about saving the max money so we can have that color TV in every room and a cell phone for every member of the family, to accomplish that goal we have as a society fed the frenzy to send manufacturing jobs overseas and to allow mega corps to stamp out family run businesses by our materialistic natures. BTW, no one is more guilty of all this than me, I love my toys. As for the argument that internet pricing allows more people into the hobby, I have a different prospective having worked at LFS's in the 70's and 80's. I think that internet pricing is allowing people to have larger tanks, back when I was in the trade The vast majority of setups were 55 gallons or less, a 100 gal tank used to be a huge one, 180's & 240's were the ultimate big boys on the block and were very rare. People tend to spend what they can, I maxed out my budget to go with a 1000 gal system, were it not for the internet I would have still built my "dream" system, it's just that it would have been downsized to accomodate brick and mortar pricing. Anyway, as I walk into Wal Mart to buy my weekly allotment of cheap Chinese made crap, I long for the days of yesteryear.....

 

[roscoe]

You know I find it very disturbing that people in america always say that chinese made products are crap. Do we take the time to think that us Americans are the one taking advantage of the CHEAP labor in china so there for the products are as American as they are Chinese! They are American/European companies just chinese workers! So please lets keep the race factor out to me it is borderline racial. I'm just sick of people blaming the chinese people for crappy product when WE (americans) are the cause of it. JMHO (By the way I'm not Chinese)

Sarang

 

[Skimmy]

markets change...businesses will have to as well, or die...
if you dont have the foresight to see that business/entertainment/technology is going digital/internet/virtual then you probably shouldnt be in business.

 

[Skimmy]

You know I find it very disturbing that people in america always say that chinese made products are crap. Do we take the time to think that us Americans are the one taking advantage of the CHEAP labor in china so there for the products are as American as they are Chinese! They are American/European companies just chinese workers! So please lets keep the race factor out to me it is borderline racial. I'm just sick of people blaming the chinese people for crappy product when WE (americans) are the cause of it. JMHO (By the way I'm not Chinese)

Sarang

well then they should stop making crap.
yes, were even more stupid because we buy that crap, but that doesnt change the fact that they make it that way.
alot of americans are too stupid to care about what they consume or how it effects the environment as a whole, or the quality of the lives of the people who have to make these items. manufacturers take advantage of this fact, and scince they are manifesting these goods i'd say at least half if not more of the blame is on them for making it that way.
the business owners make contious descisions to run their businesses a certain way based on profit margins, not human rights.
all we can do is stop buying them, but that just means they find someone else to buy them, not that those practices actually stop.

so, we need to stop buying this plannet killing crap yes, but they as well need to stop making it/treating workers/environment that way.

 

[DonW]

I think as hobbiest learn, they find that the biggest issue with most of the LFS's is inventory or lack of. There are a few good ones but for the most part LFS's dont carry the products people want. I get gift certificates every year for christmas they go unused every year. Each time I go to these stores I cant find anything to spend the money on. My last trip to the LFS was for heaters. I figured since I have a few hundred bucks in gift certificates and was setting up a new tank I might as well start off with fresh heaters. I drive across town only to find cheap junk that I would'nt use. I can always blow the money on salt and test kits but again all they had was stuff I would'nt use. I had to resort to the internet and now have a gift certificates that have been in my wallet so long the ink has faded away and are useless. Thats a few hundred buck in sales just lost since I usually make unintended impulse purchases.

Don

 

[surf_buddy]

I want to see where this goes...

 

[roscoe]

I understand what you are saying Mark. I think you are missing my point. We go around blaming people for what we create and cause rather than taking a look at the back side of why it is being made that way. Yes I agree alot of stuff from China is poorly made, but it is the corporate world of America/Europe amongst other well off country that is putting this stuff out not the Chinese people! For example, Do you think all the Chinese made skimmers will be built differently or of higher quality material if it was to be built in the US or Europe? I think not it is the company itself that engineer and design these products and the corporate world trying to cut corners to save themselves a few bucks!

 

[Skimmy]

as a far as the lfs's are concerned...

i dont get these stores you go into with the morons behind the counter...
no salesmanship, no methodology to teach you...why would i go there at all???
then you add what don is talking about with the limited amounts of crappy products...which they do on purpose because they dont make as much profit margin off of more expensive gear...

people would be stupid not to buy from the internet compared to stores like that.
...and that's coming from someone who will probably own a retail store one day.

 

[DonW]

Its not about race so lets try to keep that out of the discussion.


As far as skimmers go. US companies have been forced to cut corners and make cheaper stuff or move their manufacturing overseas. Euroreef is a example of what used to be a good high quality product. If I'm correct they are going to made similar to the Octo's now. I think it was a do or die thing for Euroreef if I'm not mistaken.

As far as LFS's go if they are dieing its because they are not giving their customers what they need or want. For most folks price is only part of the reason a purchase is made.

Don

 

[Jobiwan]

Sorry if I came across as racist Roscoe, that was not my intent, it is just still foremost in my mind that our childrens toys have recently been shipped into our country coated with toxic substances, and our pets have died agonizing deaths due to toxins in pet food additives, as it happens these products did not originate in Brazil or Sweden, they happened to come from China. Anyway, my apologies also to all for triggering a total highjack of this thread, my mind does tend to take a lot of logical (or maybe illogical...) leaps when I get going on these sorts of things....

 

[roscoe]

I know it is not about race. I just hate it when people throw a certain race into the mix that is all Don. People are just so quick to blame. I know you are not a racist jobiwan. It is our stupidity! We are the one buying these things so we are feeding this frenzy to ourselves we fortunatly live in a place where we have a CHOICE on what we buy so if you don't want a chinese made product don't buy it.

 

[chadmace]

I purchase all my live stock, live rock from LFS, as well as fish foods, carbon, etc etc. And I'll never miss out on good sales, however unless there is an emergency that is pretty much it. I recently purchased a Seio 1500 for $60 brand new shipped, and no tax. I would have easily paid 89.99 or 99.99 depending on the LFS plus tax for the 1 pump. While I do what I can to support my LFS the important thing is that I support myself by making financially sound decisions. Saving $40 here and there adds up over the course of your life.

 

[Skimmy]

I understand what you are saying Mark. I think you are missing my point. We go around blaming people for what we create and cause rather than taking a look at the back side of why it is being made that way. Yes I agree alot of stuff from China is poorly made, but it is the corporate world of America/Europe amongst other well off country that is putting this stuff out not the Chinese people! For example, Do you think all the Chinese made skimmers will be built differently or of higher quality material if it was to be built in the US or Europe? I think not it is the company itself that engineer and design these products and the corporate world trying to cut corners to save themselves a few bucks!

your right, i agree that it isnt the fault of the actual chinese workers, not at all, they just want to survive...
i was indirectly refrencing the the business owners/policy makers who choose these business practices...which your right, im sure in many instances the true owners are probably first world american/europeans.
it does make me wonder who owns honya shenizen (the manufacturers of coralvue & swc octopus/reefflo/octo extreme/octo pro and some euroreef skimmer bodies). and what percentage of companies that manufacture in china are foreign owned?

 

[DonW]

I purchase all my live stock, live rock from LFS, as well as fish foods, carbon, etc etc. And I'll never miss out on good sales, however unless there is an emergency that is pretty much it. I recently purchased a Seio 1500 for $60 brand new shipped, and no tax. I would have easily paid 89.99 or 99.99 depending on the LFS plus tax for the 1 pump. While I do what I can to support my LFS the important thing is that I support myself by making financially sound decisions. Saving $40 here and there adds up over the course of your life.

The no tax thing is great but its illegal and is catching up to many online vendors and is going to put a large number of them out of business when DOR gets ahold of their financials. Many states are going after online vendors for back taxes and it wont be long before they catch up to the vendors we use.

This is an example of a LFS killing themselves. I agree saving $40 is worth going on line. The store would be much better off reducing their profit and sucking you into a addon or impulse purchase while your there. Even better dip into the capitol and buy more to get a better price for their customers and retain the profit margin.

Don

 

[Skimmy]

This is an example of a LFS killing themselves. I agree saving $40 is worth going on line. The store would be much better off reducing their profit and sucking you into a addon or impulse purchase while your there. Even better dip into the capitol and buy more to get a better price for their customers and retain the profit margin.

Don

word...

but that would require salesmanship and market foresight...
and there is a nasty trend of having 18 year old hamster feeders
manning alot of the lfs's
ie; where's the owner? how much is that coral? and what is that coral? = "uuugh, i dunno"

 

[Jobiwan]

No states have successfully gone after out of state on line vendors due to federal laws prohibiting restrictions on interstate commerce. If you order something online from Costco and you live in Minneappolis, Minnesota sales tax is collected because Costco has stores located in Minnesota. If you live in North Dakota and order something from Costco it is delivered to your door and North Dakota sales tax is not collected, you get it sales tax free because Costco has no Brick and Mortar businesses in NoDak, if they opened a store in Bismark then sales tax would be charged. The buyer is in no way liable to pay sales tax on interstate commerce. However, as a WA resident if you drive over to OR and drive back across the border with a bunch of OR merchandise you have not paid WA sales tax on you are legally liable to pay it to the state of WA in theory, back in the 80's the WSP enforced that for a short while, think they ran into legal issues about randomly stopping and checking cars for new TV's etc, not really enforced now to my knowledge, but I think it's there, just try licensing a car in WA that you bought in OR without paying sales tax. Your friend and mine, Mr. Know It All

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

Not to diverge too much, but the interstate tax laws are in the process of changing as we speak. Several states WILL start changing the way taxes are collected, which will cause us to start seeing taxes on out-of-state internet sales. It's only a matter of time until it is nationwide. And this is regardless of whether or not the business has a physical presence in the state being shipped to. But until then, jobiwan is correct in that current federal law doesn't allow it.

Anyone that has made a purchase decision for anything, based solely on price, is guilty of the demise of the Mom&Pop stores... not just LFS. (And yes... that includes me.) All niche markets see the same problem. Right now, customer service is NOT seen as a value added commodity. It's just how cheap can I get it, and how quick can I get it. It WILL eventually swing the other way as incomes start to rise again relative to things that people need to get by, and people have more money to spend on better things. But right now, the enormous purchasing power of the big box stores (Walmart, Lowes, HomeDepot, shoot... even REI) is what drives product design and quality - not what the consumers want... but what the stores want, and what they feel they can get the most margin from. The assumption is that the stores wants reflect the consumers wants. But that's not true. The stores though will point to their sales and say "But see... everyone buys THIS brand, so that's what people want and that's what we stock." But ask the customer and they tell you "I only bought that brand/type because that was all I could buy!"

Eventually we'll get back to a more consumer focused market, but I'm not sure if it'll be in my lifetime!