A 750g SPS system is born
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I posted this in my local club's forum, but here it is also so it can help others.
Well, since I just found out my acros had been dying due to the acro eating flatworms, I did a little more reserch to fnd a suitable solution. As I was doing this, I realized that in the last 2 years, I, or rather my livestock, have been hit pretty hard with all 3 of the worse plagues a SPS tank can have: montipora eating nudibranchs, acropora eating flatworms, and the red bugs. With the montipora eating nudibranchs, I lost well over 40 very nice montiporas, with the red bugs I lost less than 5 acros, but with these acro eating flatworms I have lost well over 45-50 acros!!! To me, it is not even the real dollar cost of the corals lost, but the fact that most were hand picked for their particular features and I am very likely to never find them again.
After doing a thorough search, I came up with some potential treatments and I will discuss them below. I am not taking credit for any of them as I found them elsewhere. I also say potential because with the exception of one of them, I have not tried the others personally.
Red bugs:
I think the treatment for this is the easiest to mention given it has been around for a while. I am sure most of you know about the interceptor treatment. You can find the entire original treatment protocol in RDO. What is interesting to me is that most people are still doing 3 treatments as originally proposed, which I find it unnecessary. The 3 treatment routine started because the life cycle of the bugs were not known entirely and so was assumed they had a larval stage. Latter it was found they actually are live bearers, so giving birth to live bugs negates the need for more than one treatment. However, some still do a second treatment for the "just in case" factor.
In addition to the treatment, I personally dip any new incoming corals with interceptor at a dosage that I seriously pulled out of my arzzz. Why all corals? Because I don't know if a single bug from an acro in a holding tank somewhere along the line from the ocean to me climbed on the rock the monti or other coral is in. And, since the drug does not affect other corals, it is fine by me. The dose for my personal dip is as follows:
1. Take a single interceptor pill for a 51-100 Lb dog and crush it
2. Mix it very well in a 5g bucket with newly made saltwater at 1.025 specific gravity.
3. Take new coral and put 1-2g of my tank's water in it, the water the coral came in the bag, and another 0.5-1g of the interceptor mix described in #1 above.
4. Let it sit for approximately 3-4 hours
5. Rinse in tank water
6. Place in tank.
Montipora eating nudibranchs:
These are some nasty pests to get. Many people like myself have lost entire collections of montiporas to them. They are very easy to get and nearly impossible to get rid of. The only "in-tank" treatment known so far is 2 fish that have had mixed results. One is the pencil wrasse and the other the yellow cori wrasse. Neither is a sure thing, but some people have had great success with them.
The other treatment I call somewhat experiemental because it is not very well known and not very widely used yet. Mitch Carl, the director of the Omaha Zoo had been playing with different dosages of different medication to dip affected corals in. He came up with a dosage with the medication known as Levimasole Hydrochloride that he claims he has been successfull at killing the nudibranchs AS A DIP AND NOT FOR TANK TREATMENT!! He claims that a dip for 5-6 hours at 40 ppm of the medication will kill them. One need to blast the colony with a turkey baster to make sure any nudis dead como off the coral. It is not known if it affects the eggs, so you may have to re-dip the coral within a week to erradicate any young ones that may have hatched since the last treatment.
The way you come up with 40 ppm is as he described in the RC thread linked below:
To calculate drug dose use the following formula for 100% active drug according to Mitch Carl:
volume in liters of tank x ppm (drug dosage) / 1000mg/g=#of grams required of the drug
For drugs that have less than 100% active drug, you take the percentage of the active drug (Levamisole hydrochloride is 80% active w/ 20% inert ingredients) and multiply the percentage to the 1000mg/g. So...
volume in L x ppm / 800mg/g = grams of drug
So if your treating a 10 gal tank w/ 40ppm Levamisole its:
37.8L x 40ppm / 800mg/g= 1.89g of Levamisole
Not many people have used this dip treatment, but I suspect it is due to lack of spread of the word. However, he claims he has been very successfull with it several times. My best guess is that the use of this dip to treat all present and new incoming montis combined with the use of the fish is the best alternative.
Acropora eating flatworms:
Now, this is the last round of nasty pests hittimg the tanks near you. Very easy to spread, nearly impossible to see from simple observation of the corals even close by, and sure to kill each acro it touches. I personally have now lost 45-50 acros to these flatworms. I inspected a few corals before and did not see them until I did it again yesterday.
"In-tank" treatment is described as fairly good, but no guaranties either. Some people like Mike Paletta report 100% erradication of these parasites twice in his large 1200g tank using the Chelidonura varians nudibranchs. They eat exclussively flatworms and he claims in 2 weeks his tank was clear of them. These nudibranchs are not the easiest thing to find, but they are not rare either. Liveaquaria has them for $23.99 each, but you'll need "a few". He used 1 per 100g in his tank as a reference. They have a ver short life cycle of approximately a month or so, and seem to be thrill seekers attracted to pump intakes and overflows.
The other treatment is a dip in the same proportions and dosage/duration as the one above for the monti eating nudibranchs. I ahve personally ordered some levimasole and will be dipping as many corals as I can. I will also add about 16 nudibranchs to my tank in hopes that they eat what is left. I will also beging to dip all new corals in Interceptor as above and this medication as well.
I don't advocate anyone of you go and do any of these treatments, but I wanteds to put all this info in one place to make it easier to find. It took me quiet a bit to find it all, so it should make your life much easier. Below are a few links to read more about the last 2 and the proposed treatment/dip.
Velve varians nudibranchs
Thrreat on RC about acro eating flatworms
Where to get Levimasole hydrochloride
Montipora eating nudibranchs thread in RC
Good luck and may the Dips be with you!
Well, since I just found out my acros had been dying due to the acro eating flatworms, I did a little more reserch to fnd a suitable solution. As I was doing this, I realized that in the last 2 years, I, or rather my livestock, have been hit pretty hard with all 3 of the worse plagues a SPS tank can have: montipora eating nudibranchs, acropora eating flatworms, and the red bugs. With the montipora eating nudibranchs, I lost well over 40 very nice montiporas, with the red bugs I lost less than 5 acros, but with these acro eating flatworms I have lost well over 45-50 acros!!! To me, it is not even the real dollar cost of the corals lost, but the fact that most were hand picked for their particular features and I am very likely to never find them again.
After doing a thorough search, I came up with some potential treatments and I will discuss them below. I am not taking credit for any of them as I found them elsewhere. I also say potential because with the exception of one of them, I have not tried the others personally.
Red bugs:
I think the treatment for this is the easiest to mention given it has been around for a while. I am sure most of you know about the interceptor treatment. You can find the entire original treatment protocol in RDO. What is interesting to me is that most people are still doing 3 treatments as originally proposed, which I find it unnecessary. The 3 treatment routine started because the life cycle of the bugs were not known entirely and so was assumed they had a larval stage. Latter it was found they actually are live bearers, so giving birth to live bugs negates the need for more than one treatment. However, some still do a second treatment for the "just in case" factor.
In addition to the treatment, I personally dip any new incoming corals with interceptor at a dosage that I seriously pulled out of my arzzz. Why all corals? Because I don't know if a single bug from an acro in a holding tank somewhere along the line from the ocean to me climbed on the rock the monti or other coral is in. And, since the drug does not affect other corals, it is fine by me. The dose for my personal dip is as follows:
1. Take a single interceptor pill for a 51-100 Lb dog and crush it
2. Mix it very well in a 5g bucket with newly made saltwater at 1.025 specific gravity.
3. Take new coral and put 1-2g of my tank's water in it, the water the coral came in the bag, and another 0.5-1g of the interceptor mix described in #1 above.
4. Let it sit for approximately 3-4 hours
5. Rinse in tank water
6. Place in tank.
Montipora eating nudibranchs:
These are some nasty pests to get. Many people like myself have lost entire collections of montiporas to them. They are very easy to get and nearly impossible to get rid of. The only "in-tank" treatment known so far is 2 fish that have had mixed results. One is the pencil wrasse and the other the yellow cori wrasse. Neither is a sure thing, but some people have had great success with them.
The other treatment I call somewhat experiemental because it is not very well known and not very widely used yet. Mitch Carl, the director of the Omaha Zoo had been playing with different dosages of different medication to dip affected corals in. He came up with a dosage with the medication known as Levimasole Hydrochloride that he claims he has been successfull at killing the nudibranchs AS A DIP AND NOT FOR TANK TREATMENT!! He claims that a dip for 5-6 hours at 40 ppm of the medication will kill them. One need to blast the colony with a turkey baster to make sure any nudis dead como off the coral. It is not known if it affects the eggs, so you may have to re-dip the coral within a week to erradicate any young ones that may have hatched since the last treatment.
The way you come up with 40 ppm is as he described in the RC thread linked below:
To calculate drug dose use the following formula for 100% active drug according to Mitch Carl:
volume in liters of tank x ppm (drug dosage) / 1000mg/g=#of grams required of the drug
For drugs that have less than 100% active drug, you take the percentage of the active drug (Levamisole hydrochloride is 80% active w/ 20% inert ingredients) and multiply the percentage to the 1000mg/g. So...
volume in L x ppm / 800mg/g = grams of drug
So if your treating a 10 gal tank w/ 40ppm Levamisole its:
37.8L x 40ppm / 800mg/g= 1.89g of Levamisole
Not many people have used this dip treatment, but I suspect it is due to lack of spread of the word. However, he claims he has been very successfull with it several times. My best guess is that the use of this dip to treat all present and new incoming montis combined with the use of the fish is the best alternative.
Acropora eating flatworms:
Now, this is the last round of nasty pests hittimg the tanks near you. Very easy to spread, nearly impossible to see from simple observation of the corals even close by, and sure to kill each acro it touches. I personally have now lost 45-50 acros to these flatworms. I inspected a few corals before and did not see them until I did it again yesterday.
"In-tank" treatment is described as fairly good, but no guaranties either. Some people like Mike Paletta report 100% erradication of these parasites twice in his large 1200g tank using the Chelidonura varians nudibranchs. They eat exclussively flatworms and he claims in 2 weeks his tank was clear of them. These nudibranchs are not the easiest thing to find, but they are not rare either. Liveaquaria has them for $23.99 each, but you'll need "a few". He used 1 per 100g in his tank as a reference. They have a ver short life cycle of approximately a month or so, and seem to be thrill seekers attracted to pump intakes and overflows.
The other treatment is a dip in the same proportions and dosage/duration as the one above for the monti eating nudibranchs. I ahve personally ordered some levimasole and will be dipping as many corals as I can. I will also add about 16 nudibranchs to my tank in hopes that they eat what is left. I will also beging to dip all new corals in Interceptor as above and this medication as well.
I don't advocate anyone of you go and do any of these treatments, but I wanteds to put all this info in one place to make it easier to find. It took me quiet a bit to find it all, so it should make your life much easier. Below are a few links to read more about the last 2 and the proposed treatment/dip.
Velve varians nudibranchs
Thrreat on RC about acro eating flatworms
Where to get Levimasole hydrochloride
Montipora eating nudibranchs thread in RC
Good luck and may the Dips be with you!
I hope they throw a "sticky" on this thread!!!! Very good info Alberto!!
ldrhawke
John
I wonder if there are any fish out there that would help? I know my copperband and mandarin in my tank do nothing but look around all the time for something to eat. There isn't much that is very small on the coral or rocks that moves they won't eat. My butterfly has never bothered the SPS polyps even though it is always hunting in and around them.
If you have a small tank I would get a couple of each and then collect the flatworms and put them in the tank with the fish to see if they eat them. I have a feeling they will eat the flat worms. It they do it is a natural fix or at least a way of control. If they do eat the flatworms, I would purchase a half dozen of each and watch them go to work. In you size tank thye have plenty of places to run and set up terrritories even if they don't recommend putting a number of butterfly in the same tank.
If you have a small tank I would get a couple of each and then collect the flatworms and put them in the tank with the fish to see if they eat them. I have a feeling they will eat the flat worms. It they do it is a natural fix or at least a way of control. If they do eat the flatworms, I would purchase a half dozen of each and watch them go to work. In you size tank thye have plenty of places to run and set up terrritories even if they don't recommend putting a number of butterfly in the same tank.
RedEyeReef
Well-known member
Anyone know where you can buy Chelidonura varians? Live Aquaria is out.
Ask your LFS if they can order them for you. They are a pretty common item in the wholesaler's lists. Otherwise you can volunteer to get raped by reefermadness. they are asking $29, which I think is literally insane!!!!
http://www.reefermadness.us/RMD_Chelidonura_varians.htm
http://www.reefermadness.us/RMD_Chelidonura_varians.htm
Last edited:
edgerat
Indecisive
what about one of these? They are touted on atlantic aquariums as eaters of flatworms. 40bux.
Maxx
Staff Housemonkey
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 2,935
If you look at the shape of that wrasses mouth, it closely resembles the Novaculichthys taeniourus (Dragon Wrasse), Which isnt reef safe.
http://species.fishindex.com/species_1699novaculichthys_taeniourus_dragon_wrasse.html
Here is more info from Fishbase.....
http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/spe...nusname=Novaculichthys&speciesname=taeniourus
Personally, that wouldnt go into my tank. I know Atlantic aquarium may bill that as reef safe.......but based on its physical characteristics......I wouldnt bet on it.
Nick
http://species.fishindex.com/species_1699novaculichthys_taeniourus_dragon_wrasse.html
Here is more info from Fishbase.....
http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/spe...nusname=Novaculichthys&speciesname=taeniourus
Personally, that wouldnt go into my tank. I know Atlantic aquarium may bill that as reef safe.......but based on its physical characteristics......I wouldnt bet on it.
Nick
jakepilot7
New member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2005
- Messages
- 3
edgerat
Indecisive
maxx said:
you pretty much echo my thoughts about the fish. They didnt bill it as REEF SAFE as much as they said it would eat the acro flatworms. Sounds to me like 75% of the SPS in alberto's tank is gone thanks to these guys. The nudibranchs are a much safer plan as long as they dont have any other thirsts after they eat the worms.
edgerat
Indecisive
after a little more poking around I found this http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/Spe...ame=Novaculichthys&speciesname=macrolepidotus same as a dragon just pertier. So, NEVERMIND! :lol:
Maxx
Staff Housemonkey
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 2,935
Edgerat,
Good of you to point out other options to Alberto...
I was just thinking along the lines that he has to be extra careful when adding a fish to his tank. Its a PITA to remove a fish from my tank....but I dont have 750 gallon tank either....
Jake,
I havent seen it personally, but have seen alot of his photo's. Steve is a member here too, but I think he lurks most of the time.
Nick
Good of you to point out other options to Alberto...
I was just thinking along the lines that he has to be extra careful when adding a fish to his tank. Its a PITA to remove a fish from my tank....but I dont have 750 gallon tank either....
Jake,
I havent seen it personally, but have seen alot of his photo's. Steve is a member here too, but I think he lurks most of the time.
Nick
NaH2O
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2004
- Messages
- 8,568
Steve posted some knowledge about his cold water aquarium in this thread: Cold Water Aquariums, Keeping Them Cold.
I've always been inspired by Steve's reef, and his fish room area
I've always been inspired by Steve's reef, and his fish room area
mfinn
Surgeonfish
edgerat said:
There is a very long thread on reef central about the novaculichthys macrolepidotus eating the nudibranches that consume zoanthids.
Some people found the wrasse to be a good reef fish and some found it to be a holy terror
Thanks for the suggestion, but I doubt I will go that far. I ahve to be extra careful to add anything in this tank because as pointed out, it is only coming out in one of two ways:
1. as a carcus picked up by me
2. through the skimmer as decompossed proteins in the water:badgrin: :badgrin:
Another corals bit the dust this last week, but it seems to ahve slowed down some. Maybe it is because they have killed so many corals that what is left is so far apart from each other they die trying to find them LOL................
I added 3 yellow coris wrasse, 2 longnose hawks, and 2 banded pipefish. I am hoping the pipefish do last because there is so much flow int he tank they may never come out of the rock work.
I also ordered 15 velvet nudibranchs. 15 came in, but they were all so tiny it was almost microscopic. Of those 15, 12 were DOA. The other 3 were either retarded or extremely weak. They would move around, but they couldn't seem to hang on to anything. With all the flow they were flying around all over the pace and eventually got sucked up by the close loop intakes several times and spit back out through the returns. Very disappointing to say the least. I am still waiting on the dip medicine (levimasole) to come in.
1. as a carcus picked up by me
2. through the skimmer as decompossed proteins in the water:badgrin: :badgrin:
Another corals bit the dust this last week, but it seems to ahve slowed down some. Maybe it is because they have killed so many corals that what is left is so far apart from each other they die trying to find them LOL................
I added 3 yellow coris wrasse, 2 longnose hawks, and 2 banded pipefish. I am hoping the pipefish do last because there is so much flow int he tank they may never come out of the rock work.
I also ordered 15 velvet nudibranchs. 15 came in, but they were all so tiny it was almost microscopic. Of those 15, 12 were DOA. The other 3 were either retarded or extremely weak. They would move around, but they couldn't seem to hang on to anything. With all the flow they were flying around all over the pace and eventually got sucked up by the close loop intakes several times and spit back out through the returns. Very disappointing to say the least. I am still waiting on the dip medicine (levimasole) to come in.
RedEyeReef
Well-known member
dgasmd,
Where do you order from?
Where do you order from?
