A Sediment substrate that works

[mojoreef]

I would say 2 inches might be better. your going to get all the nitrification and denitrification in that depth, plus we hae another two inches below for extra denitrification. I think this deth with this type of sand will give us a decent diffusion also.

what do you think??

Mike

 

[MikeS]

Doh - I knew it was early. OK - I think I understand....you are going to heat the dry substrate then run it through a seive. For some reason I was imagining rinsing it then running it through a seive. Do I understand correctly?

Yep, you got it!

We run gradations on all kinds of aggregate at work for highway construction, the process works quite well for seperating a very large percentage of the fines from a sample...so I thought I'd do the same with my substrate material...


Mojo.....hmmm.....as a sand junkie I'd like to see three inches (I know I know...old habits die hard)...would you see any particular drawback to going with three instead of two inches?


MikeS

 

[mojoreef]

Just diffusion, but everything you want to happen is going to happen in the 2 inches, then you got the plenum as extra


Mike

 

[bobgoode]

MikeS, I'll call your 3 & raise you 1[total-6"]. MikeM, 4" topping will not impede diffusion, Bob

 

[MikeS]

Kinda my thinking also...a deeper substrate (to a point) will possibly aid in more equal diffusion throughout the sandbed into the plenum, which I still think is going to be a key to the long term success of the system....

Mike

 

[mojoreef]

Oh man you Aquarium Composters are a tough crowd, lol.

Ok so right now we have 3 to 4 inches of substraght, any other votes or ideas folks???

On a side note I talk to my buddy and I will have the plenum and tank back on friday for sure. So I can do some testing, SO think of some testing or things you might like to see.

Mike

 

[MikeS]

I'd be happy with three inches....

MikeS

 

[NaH2O]

I like 3 inches, too.

On the testing - I'm not sure what we could test for short term? How would we be able to see how well the system is functioning?

 

[plack]

I'm New BUT

hey Ive read where a health amount of sand bed critters (floura) can turn over the entire sand bed in about 3-4 days and a 4" sand bed is about right 6-8 is getting too deep also fine sand is best as coral etc do not have the same amount of surface area see the attached link about
.... The Importance of Deep Sand.

By Ronald L. Shimek, Ph. D.

Initially Published in the March, 2001, Aquarium Fish Magazine


http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm

 

[MikeS]

Ok...here's my idea on testing, mojo....

If you think that 2 inches of that sand will provide adequate denitrafication and equal diffusion into the plenum, then let's set it up that way...if it will provide good denitrafication and good equal diffuison, I'd actually be all for a shallower sand bed...

my vote is a 2 inch deep sand bed in the test....

Mike

 

[plack]

why so thin

Every chemist article Ive read shows thicker if I understand the berlin system says why even have sand just elevate the live rock above the bottom of the tank 4" on acrylic stands and use a skimmer like the petco in lynwood does

 

[mojoreef]

I am not worried about the nitrification/denitrification, it think thier is enough info on that out thier. I was thinking more on testing the diffusion, see how it draws water through the sand, how effective it is at removin the crud under the plenum. stuff like that

 

[mojoreef]

Hiya Plack and welcome to Reef frontiers. I think most of us here are well aware of Dr. Rons thoughts on DSB's you will find if you dig a little deeper into his more resent statements that his concepts and ideas have changed a tad.
On the critters you are correct, having alot of critters will stir up the bed, the problem is that the critters will eventually die and give way to the more dominant species (bristle worms usually) unless you replenish the population.
Thier are a couple of inherent problems with a dsb that come with some of the pros. One is that it only processes nitrogen based products and sinks the balance, this leads to an eventual filling of the bed and thus the end of its filtration. We are trying to counter that by allowing a plenum area below the bed in order to be able to suck out any of this non nitrogen based products. Another inherent problem is the fact that a dsb cannot handle a large ammount of bioload, as it can only process so much at any given time, I believe Ron said 3 to 4 small fish in a 6 inch bed in a 100 gallon tank. The quarterly sucking out of the plenum area will draw new airated water into the upper section of sand and break up clogs and continue to make the section aerobic, which should also extra organics that have not been processed completely and give the bed a break on the organic build up. This should allow for more of a bioload to be had.
What we are basically trying to do is to create a system that can over come some of the inherent problems a sand substraight has.

Ohh and then thier is the problem with P, but i will leave that one to Bob


Mike

 

[MikeS]

so.......two inches of sand in the test? "Sand Junkie" that I am....I do admittedly get tired of the look of 6 inches of sand in my tank...and it takes up valuable stacking room for LR....If I could get away with 4 inches (2 inches of sand on top of a 2 inch plenum) and it provided me with all the pros of my exisiting DSB, I'd be a happy camper....

MikeS

 

[plack]

So I am curious Isnt' a plenum a sand bed of different layers and how can it be kept unturned by worms and how do you accoplish this "
The quarterly sucking out of the plenum area will draw new airated water into the upper section of sand and break up clogs and continue to make the section aerobic, which should also extra organics that have not been processed completely and give the bed a break on the organic build up" what is quarterly sucking is that simply vacuming with a tube the sand bed every 3 months I am interested as i am planning on buying live sand tomorrow from someone on this site and was planning a 4" DSB

 

[MikeS]

the main idea of this system is to draw off undesireable byproducts/waste and any solids possible from a sand substrate....

Worms and such will have basically the same effect that they do in a normal DSB....

"quarterly sucking out of the plenum" will entail drawing water off the plenum via the plumbing about every 3 months or so.....


MikeS

 

[NaH2O]

plack - Welcome to Reef Frontiers! - I know this thread is terribly long (page 20 already), but if you go to the design section in the first several pages, you will see how the system is set up to pull the water out of the plenum space. Here is another great read on Filtration Concepts.

OK - Mike squared (lol - both mikes - yes I'm a dork). This may be really silly, but to check out the diffusion, perhaps the tank water can be dyed in some way, then every so often take a draw and compare the color of the draw to the tank (darker the draw, then the more water has entered the space)? On the removing of organics in the plenum space....maybe during set-up, Mike, you could toss some smaller stuff in there and see if it gets sucked out. Feed your Vlamingi and collect his waste...lol. Well, there are a couple of ideas that I had...not sure if they'll work or what you are looking for, but maybe it will get the ball rolling.

 

[MikeS]

I have not been able to think of any good tests for the "mechanical" aspect of the system...

I guess the proof will be in the pudding, so to speak....lets see how it performs over time....

What would be good water parameters (besides nitrate) to test over time to enable us to judge the performance of the system?

mojo....how do you plan on setting up (other equipment like skimmers, ect) & stocking this test tank, ie LR, corals, fish, ect....?

MikeS

 

[mojoreef]

Mike I dont think doing testing like that is going to be happening. Really I dont see the point. Heres my logic.
The sand portion of the bed is pretty much the same as any DSB. It will be in the range of 3 to 4 inches and will be seeded with the same critters as one would do with a dsb. So for all concerns it will be set up the same as your DSB. Just a little less thick. Now according to all the so called experts of DSB (Dr. Ron, Sam G, Rob T and so on) have already come out and written that a 2 to 3 inch bed will do everything a 4 to 6 inch bed will do. I tend to agree, the only difference in my eyes would be the ammount the bed sinks prior to filling. SO if we take all that the only difference is going to be the ability to remove what would normally be filling the bed, clogging the bed and so on.
So I believe the testing should be done on that portion of our projects operation. its ability to diffuse water through it evenly, the ability for it to draw up end product/particulate dust from the bottom. Here is what I was thinking.
1st test> I will plumb the thing up, but with no sand. I will gather up some detritus and some particulate dust form my sump. and place and even layer over the bottom of the unit. Take pic. then turn on the pump, it should be easy to see the ammount of material removed.
2nd test>before sand is in I will measure how much water the PH will pump out. I will then do the test once again with the sand and mesh in place. this should give us a good idea at the pump size we will need to use on this system.
3rd test> With the tank loaded with sand/mesh and water i will add some dye to the water and turn on the pump, with the bottom being clear I should be able to see the red dye water coming through the sand and out the bottom of the mesh. This should give us a good idea of what the eveness of the diffusion of the bed.

Thats all I have so far, so if I am missing one let me know

Mike

 

[plack]

question from a newbee

So could someone tell me how often you clean the sand bed and what method vacum or tukey baster moving water on top? regardless of the depth and doyou do anything afterwards like add new fauna?