A Sediment substrate that works
- Thread starter mojoreef
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Witfull
Well-known member
ok,,,my mod to your concept....instead of half pipes, cut slits in them an this would increase draw when sucking out.
your turn...
your turn...
Scooterman
Well-known member
mesh screen wrapped around the slits
Scooterman
Well-known member
no maybe not
DonW
R.I.P.
I wonder why pull it all the through or why have a dead space at all. What would happen if the dsb was airated. I guess with something like soaker hose. Can be done in sections with some sort of manifold. In theory the crap would be pushed up where it can be vacuumed and skimmed out. If done in sections the dsb should'nt be damaged and shouldnt glog as the substrate particle shrink.
Just wondering
Don
Just wondering
Don
I like mojos acrylic vee idea.
mojo...when you first tried to describe it to me, I envisioned the vee feeding a single trough running down the middle. Do you think this may be a bit simpler to build? Or will only one trough in the middle hinder the system?
MikeS
mojo...when you first tried to describe it to me, I envisioned the vee feeding a single trough running down the middle. Do you think this may be a bit simpler to build? Or will only one trough in the middle hinder the system?
MikeS
Katchupoy
Well-known member
Why do we need to remove this stuff from under the plenum. I thought that this is good for many years to come.... As in many, many years...
Katchupoy
Well-known member
Re: A Sediment substriaght that works
Mike, what do you mean of build up of phase? How long are we talking about here before it builds up?
mojoreef said:
Mike, what do you mean of build up of phase? How long are we talking about here before it builds up?
Katchupoy
Well-known member
Here are some excerpt I gather around...
The Plenum Layer
This is really the 'key' to this method of sand filtration. The plenum area is a motionless open layer at the bottom of the tank that acts as a 'chemical sink' or anoxic zone. This layer accumulates a small amount of oxygen along with nitrate that diffuses downward though the sand. The anoxic conditions of the plenum area and the layer above prevent anaerobic conditions in these areas while promoting denitrification in the lower sand layer.
The plenum layer should be about 1 1/2" high in aquariums under 100 gallons. In aquariums between 100-500 gallons, it is recommended that the plenum be 1 1/2" to 3" in height. The most common setup is pvc pipe on its side supporting egg-crate above it. The pipes have holes drilled in them to aid in diffusion. Make sure that the plenum is not exposed to light on the sides - you can leave a small gap around the edges and fill with sand. This way the plenum will not be seen at all. A common plastic window screening is usually placed over the egg-crate to prevent the coarse sand from dropping into the plenum area. Make sure to cover every side well to prevent this from happening. I folded the screening like a Christmas present and lit the edges with a lighter and smeared with my finger to get a good seal. What a pyro. In hindsight, silicone would have been a little safer.
MODIFICATION.
Bob's Version (I dont know him...)
Bob believes the jusry is out on the benefits of having a coarse and fine sand layer. He has adapted a single sand layer approach like that of DSB. He recommends one layer, 4 inches deep, of either aragonite or *crushed coral that is 1 to 4mm in grain size.
He firmly believes that the plenum provides the more efficient form of dentrification because it has a little bit of oxygen (0.5-2.0 mg/l) in the sand layer creating an anoxic zone. This zone helps convert nitrates back to their gaseous state. Where as a DSB with the sand placed directly on the bottom of the tank creates an anaerobic zone which converts nitrates back to ammonium and no further. This is seen as a shortcoming of DSB because the ammonium is a preferred algae nutrient.
excerpt from.... this page...http://www.3reef.com/sand.shtml
The Plenum Layer
This is really the 'key' to this method of sand filtration. The plenum area is a motionless open layer at the bottom of the tank that acts as a 'chemical sink' or anoxic zone. This layer accumulates a small amount of oxygen along with nitrate that diffuses downward though the sand. The anoxic conditions of the plenum area and the layer above prevent anaerobic conditions in these areas while promoting denitrification in the lower sand layer.
The plenum layer should be about 1 1/2" high in aquariums under 100 gallons. In aquariums between 100-500 gallons, it is recommended that the plenum be 1 1/2" to 3" in height. The most common setup is pvc pipe on its side supporting egg-crate above it. The pipes have holes drilled in them to aid in diffusion. Make sure that the plenum is not exposed to light on the sides - you can leave a small gap around the edges and fill with sand. This way the plenum will not be seen at all. A common plastic window screening is usually placed over the egg-crate to prevent the coarse sand from dropping into the plenum area. Make sure to cover every side well to prevent this from happening. I folded the screening like a Christmas present and lit the edges with a lighter and smeared with my finger to get a good seal. What a pyro. In hindsight, silicone would have been a little safer.
MODIFICATION.
Bob's Version (I dont know him...)
Bob believes the jusry is out on the benefits of having a coarse and fine sand layer. He has adapted a single sand layer approach like that of DSB. He recommends one layer, 4 inches deep, of either aragonite or *crushed coral that is 1 to 4mm in grain size.
He firmly believes that the plenum provides the more efficient form of dentrification because it has a little bit of oxygen (0.5-2.0 mg/l) in the sand layer creating an anoxic zone. This zone helps convert nitrates back to their gaseous state. Where as a DSB with the sand placed directly on the bottom of the tank creates an anaerobic zone which converts nitrates back to ammonium and no further. This is seen as a shortcoming of DSB because the ammonium is a preferred algae nutrient.
excerpt from.... this page...http://www.3reef.com/sand.shtml
RedEyeReef
Well-known member
Hey Mojo,
Did our conversation at last months Spokane Reef Society inspire you? I'm sure you are always thinking about this question from your response when I brought up DSB.
We talked about this RC thread but for everyone else...
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=289910&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
My two cents... KISS... keep it simple stupid. The simplest way to create a cavity under the sand that water can be drawn from time to time (water changes?). Eggcrate can easily be the medium to elevate the sand. I personally think almost any size sand will work, over time the gunk will get to the bottom of sugar size or crush coral. Now what is the easiest way to suck out the gunk?
Did our conversation at last months Spokane Reef Society inspire you? I'm sure you are always thinking about this question from your response when I brought up DSB.
We talked about this RC thread but for everyone else...
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=289910&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
My two cents... KISS... keep it simple stupid. The simplest way to create a cavity under the sand that water can be drawn from time to time (water changes?). Eggcrate can easily be the medium to elevate the sand. I personally think almost any size sand will work, over time the gunk will get to the bottom of sugar size or crush coral. Now what is the easiest way to suck out the gunk?
NaH2O
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2004
- Messages
- 8,568
Sheesh - I go to bed early one night and look what I wake up to!
My thoughts on keeping it simple - sometimes simple isn't always better (thinking of the horse/carriage and my closed loop). Sometimes a simple concept - needs a complex design to work (i.e. the car). I do agree, however, that complexity isn't always necessary.
I do like this idea. You would only need a couple of inches of sand to be anaerobic. With the nylon fabric - the water would move slowly through. I would be concerned about the nylon fabric ontop of the sand getting clogged by detritus making its way thru the coarse substrate.
Also, what about the sand bed melting and reducing in size over time? How would that be dealt with?
I believe the plenum in Monaco began having issues with ammonia cycling --- meaning the nitrates were converted to ammonium and then broken back down, etc etc etc.
My thoughts on keeping it simple - sometimes simple isn't always better (thinking of the horse/carriage and my closed loop). Sometimes a simple concept - needs a complex design to work (i.e. the car). I do agree, however, that complexity isn't always necessary.
I do like this idea. You would only need a couple of inches of sand to be anaerobic. With the nylon fabric - the water would move slowly through. I would be concerned about the nylon fabric ontop of the sand getting clogged by detritus making its way thru the coarse substrate.
Also, what about the sand bed melting and reducing in size over time? How would that be dealt with?
I believe the plenum in Monaco began having issues with ammonia cycling --- meaning the nitrates were converted to ammonium and then broken back down, etc etc etc.
yes, that was a concern of ours as well with the fabric. I think however that the knit on the fabric is fine enough that even with a good deal of gunk on top it will still continue to diffuse water...and the fine knit will prevent any sand from clogging it as well.
I've been trying to think of some kind of test to see if this is the case, but I haven't come up with one yet....
MikeS
I've been trying to think of some kind of test to see if this is the case, but I haven't come up with one yet....
MikeS
NaH2O
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2004
- Messages
- 8,568
I wonder how well the material used in the drain sleeves that cover corrugaed/perforated drainage pipe would work. It is a filter sock of sorts, and might work well for the upper layer (not sure of the micron measurement).
I still am concerned about the melting of the sand layer over time. Hmmmm......
I still am concerned about the melting of the sand layer over time. Hmmmm......
Don
Katchupoy
A sand Substright filter has a very low bioload ability, what we are trying to do is to mechanically help the system and thus allow for a greater bioload ability and also to stop the build up of non processable products that end up sinking.
mike
Don we are trying to design the system so that waste/detritus is processed and not just removed. On your idea I am not sure if I got the concept, can you go into a bit more detail??
Katchupoy
In the biological process that occur in a sand substraight you run into a few inherent problems as time goes by. As particles melt and are reduced they form particluate dust (portions of the sand that are unusable), then thier is bacterial flock (bacteria shed thier shell constantly, plus dead bacteria, and so on) also the enzyme/micbrobal material that bacteria use to reduce thier food sources. and finally all things not nitrogen based products that a sand system wont process. The idea of sucking out the bottom will help in a few ways. One it will help us remove these byproducts and eliminate the build up scenerio. Second it will help us keep the aerobic (upper most layer), these areas are susceptable clogging through organic build up due to overfeeding o backterial/algal die offs, this would also pertain to build ups to the anaerobic zone.
A sand Substright filter has a very low bioload ability, what we are trying to do is to mechanically help the system and thus allow for a greater bioload ability and also to stop the build up of non processable products that end up sinking.
mike
Hey RedEyeReef good to see you with us. Always thinking bud alway thinking. We have been talking about dsb's and so on for a long time. I figured it was time we started putting our ideas into play. I was part of the thread that spawned the thread you posted. I dont realy like the over all concept or design of the system that feelow is putting into play. I am not interested in recycling the plenum water and I think he has some basic concept ideas. A good first start but I think we can improve on it for sure.
What worries me about the fine sand is its ability to suck, I think it will just create fissors and the odd pathway rather then a even draw??
I am still not sure on how to build up the areas above the plenum, but for now I want to design a system under the sand (plenum) so that it works effectively.
Mike
What worries me about the fine sand is its ability to suck, I think it will just create fissors and the odd pathway rather then a even draw??
I am still not sure on how to build up the areas above the plenum, but for now I want to design a system under the sand (plenum) so that it works effectively.
Mike
Witfull
Well-known member
heres the mod to your design Mike. using full pvc pipe with 1/4 slits cut in where the acryllic meets the pipe and also under the sheeting to grap anything that may get under there,(unless it is being siliconed into place then this can be skipped.) also i added some more supports to the eggcrate. weight issues are a concern,
Witfull
Well-known member
helps if i attach it....doh
Katchupoy
Well-known member
Ok, here is my modification from the original concept...
What if we can shrink it down so we can make modules of it. So It can be more flexible.... And also it will make it more structurally sound...
This is a 4" inches module so you can add more if you want to covel the whole lenght or just partial of it...
CLICK HERE
Created the suction chamber as small as possible so you need to much suction pressure to grab those particulates...
And each module can be attached to its individual hoses (output)
I believe that sharing it with more module will make it less efficient in terms of suction pressure.
what do you think
What if we can shrink it down so we can make modules of it. So It can be more flexible.... And also it will make it more structurally sound...
This is a 4" inches module so you can add more if you want to covel the whole lenght or just partial of it...
CLICK HERE
Created the suction chamber as small as possible so you need to much suction pressure to grab those particulates...
And each module can be attached to its individual hoses (output)
I believe that sharing it with more module will make it less efficient in terms of suction pressure.
what do you think
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Katchupoy
Well-known member
weird... it doesnt do PNG files....
LETS TRY IT AGAIN...
It wont work on gif too... hmmmm....
LET ME TRY IT AGAIN ON JPEG
Well it wont work.... i'll try it again later...
LETS TRY IT AGAIN...
It wont work on gif too... hmmmm....
LET ME TRY IT AGAIN ON JPEG
Well it wont work.... i'll try it again later...
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