A Sediment substrate that works
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Katchupoy
Well-known member
Macbeth417
Reef Monkey
Well I didnt read this whole thread yet, but I followed you (Mike) at coralforum and here is my first two cents worth of questions. I will try to make nickle out of it after i finish reading this thread.
How do we go about eliminating leeching and cycling of these biproduct back into the system if the there in not a constant draw to the plenum. It seem the main arguement there was wheither to process the biproducts or the waste and the biproducts. If we dont process the wastw and allow it to remain in the upper layer of this course substrate what is preventing any of the biproduction of bacterical breakdown from returning to the tank at large instead of being ported to the bleeding system? Is the simple answer constantly bleeding this system before any build up can occur? Is there some way to maintain the constain draw of water into the plenum area without over complicating it and without loosing the anerobic zone?
-Erik
How do we go about eliminating leeching and cycling of these biproduct back into the system if the there in not a constant draw to the plenum. It seem the main arguement there was wheither to process the biproducts or the waste and the biproducts. If we dont process the wastw and allow it to remain in the upper layer of this course substrate what is preventing any of the biproduction of bacterical breakdown from returning to the tank at large instead of being ported to the bleeding system? Is the simple answer constantly bleeding this system before any build up can occur? Is there some way to maintain the constain draw of water into the plenum area without over complicating it and without loosing the anerobic zone?
-Erik
Macbeth417 said:
I'm looking at this system from a pro-DSB standpoint. (shhhh...don't tell anybody) The amount of bybroduct leeching into the system IMO is somewhat minor to start with (my DSB is 3.5 years old and no symptoms of leeching YET). Constant draw from the system would not be necessary IMO to control the byproducts, and would harm the anerobic zone.
Macbeth417 said:
Good point....I think that most of these byproducts will stay in the substrate long enough to be dealt with by extraction. This of course would depend on how often the system was drawn against.
Macbeth417 said:
That's IMO the key to this system...achieving a balance between adequate waste/byproduct removal and control of the anerobic zone. This of course, from a DSB point of view...
ok....let me have it....lol
MikeS
Good question Eric and Mike your pretty close to (everything except the minor part, lol).
Eric in order to answer that I got to explian the processes a bit.
Leeching: THe main product that is going to leech the first is Phosphates. They will come pretty much two ways from a DSB. One is as the ph lowers in the anaerobic zone the media will melt, thus releasing it and making it available. As the P is released it will be taken up by bacteria or it will percipatate back out if it hits the higher ph water in the upper bed. In Keeping the upper zone free of clogging organics and well oxygenated will can cause it to percipate out lower in the substriaght.
Second Sucking down any portion of detritus/organics/waste into the zone for removal is a plus and will help in increasing the bioload capacity of the bed itself.
Eric the concept here is to eliminate the problems associated with long term keeping and limitations a dsb type system has. A Sand substraight will shed detritus and so on just like LR will, the problem is that the bottom of the tank restricts the process.
Eric in order to answer that I got to explian the processes a bit.
Leeching: THe main product that is going to leech the first is Phosphates. They will come pretty much two ways from a DSB. One is as the ph lowers in the anaerobic zone the media will melt, thus releasing it and making it available. As the P is released it will be taken up by bacteria or it will percipatate back out if it hits the higher ph water in the upper bed. In Keeping the upper zone free of clogging organics and well oxygenated will can cause it to percipate out lower in the substriaght.
Second Sucking down any portion of detritus/organics/waste into the zone for removal is a plus and will help in increasing the bioload capacity of the bed itself.
Eric the concept here is to eliminate the problems associated with long term keeping and limitations a dsb type system has. A Sand substraight will shed detritus and so on just like LR will, the problem is that the bottom of the tank restricts the process.
Witfull
Well-known member
i believe as long as there is a decent amount of time between the suck-outs, the anaerobic zone will fully recover and get back to doing its job with out to much damage.
thanks mike,,,i now have a tune in my head......the sandbeds back and theres gonna be trouble ,,,the do Ron Ron the do Ron Ron....LOL
thanks mike,,,i now have a tune in my head......the sandbeds back and theres gonna be trouble ,,,the do Ron Ron the do Ron Ron....LOL
Scooterman
Well-known member
:badgrin:
Witfull
Well-known member
ok, i think we have come to a final design on the plenum module. the width can be adjusted to any tank. what we need to talk about now is length. what would be practical? 4'? 6'? and relative pump size. but with that substraight composition will need to be considered to allow sufficient draw from the bottom layer.
Katchupoy
Well-known member
I think, Mojo is right to go with LEFT to RIGHT, Instead front to back.
RedEyeReef
Well-known member
Katchupoy said:
I think this will depend on the size of the tank. I believe the most versatile would be 12" wide by 24" long or 36†long. A standard 120 would need 4 of these, standard 180 need 6, 55 need 2, my tank 360 I would need 12. Now if we made them 12" by 36"... 180 need 4 and my 360 if ran front to back need 8. I can’t see gravity effecting the detritus settling any different if running the plenum’s side-to-side or front-to-back? The size and design is more important then orientation.
My two cents.
Katchupoy
Well-known member
design wise, no changes. But the number of pieces will be affected thats why we are deciding if its longitudinal or shortitudinal.
Also... this must be continuous or the suction will be lost.
Im a little bit worried. If its too long.... the suction will be a lot stronger on the side where the uplift is located and it will be very minimal or nothing at all on the other side.
So I suggest that to have two outputs if the lenght reach a certain dimension.
Also... this must be continuous or the suction will be lost.
Im a little bit worried. If its too long.... the suction will be a lot stronger on the side where the uplift is located and it will be very minimal or nothing at all on the other side.
So I suggest that to have two outputs if the lenght reach a certain dimension.
Curtswearing
Mantisfreak
I have come into this this discussion late and had a little bit of confusion with this design. One of my concerns would be that a reef tank running a skimmer is typically supersaturated with Oxygen. Wouldn't the mere draining of the area below the plenum cause the supersaturated water to diffuse through the plenum by mere gravity? The last thing I want to do is kill the bacteria and have them release all of their organic phosphates in their bodies into the plenum. I also think I would lose some of the facultative bacteria as well as all of the obligates because the change in Oxygen levels would switch too fast.
I thought temporarily that I had a fix. There are Dissolved Oxygen sensors on the internet. I thought maybe we could put one of those in the middle layer to know when too much oxygen was coming in so we could stop draining immediately. Then I found out how much those puppies cost so that was an immediate stopper.
Then I thought what if we turned off the lights, skimmer, and water movement for a while and did the draining at night when the Dissolved Oxygen would be at it's lowest. Then my concern would be that the low Dissolved Oxygen would drop the pH so low that the aragonite would melt throwing phosphates into the water column and/or causing the aragonite to turn into a huge brick.
I thought temporarily that I had a fix. There are Dissolved Oxygen sensors on the internet. I thought maybe we could put one of those in the middle layer to know when too much oxygen was coming in so we could stop draining immediately. Then I found out how much those puppies cost so that was an immediate stopper.
Then I thought what if we turned off the lights, skimmer, and water movement for a while and did the draining at night when the Dissolved Oxygen would be at it's lowest. Then my concern would be that the low Dissolved Oxygen would drop the pH so low that the aragonite would melt throwing phosphates into the water column and/or causing the aragonite to turn into a huge brick.
Ok did I say left ot right, lol, because if I did I goofed. I think fron to back is the way. Here is my thinking. If we go front to back we will get better flow, more consistant. For those with larger tanks, i dont think left to right is an option. Also we can pull the plumbing off the back alot better, otherwise its off the sides. Sorry Ceasar if I said the other way.
Curt about darn time, lol
Curt we are going to loose an ammount of denitrification for a bit while the bacteria reduces the oxygen that we have placed in the bed, but at the same time we have reduced the over all amount of organics in thaose areas to, so it should balance itself out for the time period.
Mike
Curt about darn time, lol
Good post Curt, but I dont think it pertains. All we are looking for in a sand bed is areobic and faculative bacteria, those are the ones that perform nitrification and denitrification. Once you get into obligate bacteria your into Sulfur/methagen and so on types of bacteria, and to be honest I see no need for them.
Curt we are going to loose an ammount of denitrification for a bit while the bacteria reduces the oxygen that we have placed in the bed, but at the same time we have reduced the over all amount of organics in thaose areas to, so it should balance itself out for the time period.
Mike
Katchupoy
Well-known member
Mojo, (too mani Mike here)... You are right, I reviewed the previous post and you mentioned front to back...My bad.....
Whew, this is becoming mind boggling....
I will post another diagram later....
Whew, this is becoming mind boggling....
I will post another diagram later....
zeltar
Proud new papa....
Everybody'd brain melt? I dont want this thread to die.
Let's re-kindle what we had going last week.
I have been looking into strip heaters so I can attempt to build a prototype.
Let's re-kindle what we had going last week.
I have been looking into strip heaters so I can attempt to build a prototype.
Ok lets try to complete this portion of the unit and move on to the upper regions.
he is a concept that I was thinking, let me know what you think.
Ok the first pic is looking at the end of the unit so the back of the tank looking forward. I went with an all one peice unit for more strength and a larger anaerobci zone. So the anaerobic zone would be above and with in the unit itself. The whole unit is sperated by three chambers, I am doing this because I think it will create more concentration of flow when sucking out the detritus/organics. With in each chamber I have plumbed a 3/4 inch pipe that runs the length of the unit front to back.This pipe will have holes drilled in it, starting from the middle sides and then going down, this will allow a more concentrated suction of material that may land on the bottom of this unit. On top of the plenum we would place eggcrete in order to have more of an anaerobic zone and to flatten the top surface, also easier to add mesh or nylon.
Ok on top of the plenum I was thinking of cutting slots into the top, lets say 1/8th wide and every one inch apart. This will allow for a more even draw of flow when sucking down from the sediment above. Also it will increase the effectiveness of the collection of detritus and organics. The slots will be on top and in the front of the unit. The unit will be placed an inch from the front of the tank. and sediment will be placed between the unit and the front wall of the tank for looks and has to be cleaned to. I have it pictured so the plumbing comes of the back of the unit and can be run up the back wall of the tank or drilled out the back of the tank wall.
Alrighty so does any one see any problems or improvements that can be made.
Mike
he is a concept that I was thinking, let me know what you think.
Ok the first pic is looking at the end of the unit so the back of the tank looking forward. I went with an all one peice unit for more strength and a larger anaerobci zone. So the anaerobic zone would be above and with in the unit itself. The whole unit is sperated by three chambers, I am doing this because I think it will create more concentration of flow when sucking out the detritus/organics. With in each chamber I have plumbed a 3/4 inch pipe that runs the length of the unit front to back.This pipe will have holes drilled in it, starting from the middle sides and then going down, this will allow a more concentrated suction of material that may land on the bottom of this unit. On top of the plenum we would place eggcrete in order to have more of an anaerobic zone and to flatten the top surface, also easier to add mesh or nylon.
Ok on top of the plenum I was thinking of cutting slots into the top, lets say 1/8th wide and every one inch apart. This will allow for a more even draw of flow when sucking down from the sediment above. Also it will increase the effectiveness of the collection of detritus and organics. The slots will be on top and in the front of the unit. The unit will be placed an inch from the front of the tank. and sediment will be placed between the unit and the front wall of the tank for looks and has to be cleaned to. I have it pictured so the plumbing comes of the back of the unit and can be run up the back wall of the tank or drilled out the back of the tank wall.
Alrighty so does any one see any problems or improvements that can be made.
Mike
Curtswearing
Mantisfreak
What if we ran 3 pipes to the top instead of one?
That would give us more suction in each chamber for more thorough removal of detritus, mulm, and bacterial floc.
Then once every month you would move to another chamber. At any point in time, 2/3rds of the tank is running just like normal. However, there is less time for the detritus, mulm, and bacterial floc to break down in each of the chambers. Instead of doing the entire thing a couple of times per year, we are making a smaller change 12 times per year.
I would also want a shut-off valve at the top of each drain tube. I don't want Oxygen to have an interface with the water. Granted, a little tube doesn't have much of an air-water interface.....but it's still an interface. When someone tells me they have low pH, one of my normal questions is do they have a lot of turbulance at the tanks surface? This tremendously helps offgas CO2 and increase Dissolved Oxygen. While the water sitting at the top of the tube is likely to be highly stagnant (which greatly decreases the ability for Oxygen to enter the water), I don't know how much Dissolved Oxygen can make it down to the plenum. I figure, why take the chance.
That would give us more suction in each chamber for more thorough removal of detritus, mulm, and bacterial floc.
Then once every month you would move to another chamber. At any point in time, 2/3rds of the tank is running just like normal. However, there is less time for the detritus, mulm, and bacterial floc to break down in each of the chambers. Instead of doing the entire thing a couple of times per year, we are making a smaller change 12 times per year.
I would also want a shut-off valve at the top of each drain tube. I don't want Oxygen to have an interface with the water. Granted, a little tube doesn't have much of an air-water interface.....but it's still an interface. When someone tells me they have low pH, one of my normal questions is do they have a lot of turbulance at the tanks surface? This tremendously helps offgas CO2 and increase Dissolved Oxygen. While the water sitting at the top of the tube is likely to be highly stagnant (which greatly decreases the ability for Oxygen to enter the water), I don't know how much Dissolved Oxygen can make it down to the plenum. I figure, why take the chance.
Scooterman
Well-known member
These slots, are they cut out of the eggcrate?
