A Sediment substrate that works
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Ceasar I dont think me and you are on the same page. The Vee will be about an inch thick, the top plate of this will be perferated with holes, the chamber inside the the Vee will be seperated into three sections.when the suction is put to the inside of the Vee, all the detritus has to do s to get sucked into the closes hole, once their the size of the chamber should provide the suction required to get the detritus out. the egg crate placed on top is thier to create more of an anaerobic zone for dentirifcation. the detritus if very light and should suck easy.
On the removal from the tank, we have to get past this plenum design first, then we can plumb to the design. Its going to boil down to raising a pipe off the back as ceasar showed or simple drilling through the back and out.
Just as a side thought and no beating on me. I want to design this as a sand substraight that will work as we hae been doing, but the BB in me is strong yoda, lol Imagine running this with just a bit of CC on top and keeping a pump running on it all the time, say with an inline filter to capture the waste/detritus. It would all get sucked through the plenum and out to a inline filter...wooo hooo, talk about no detritus on the bottom, lol.......Ok I will never mention that again....in this thread...rofl
Mike
On the removal from the tank, we have to get past this plenum design first, then we can plumb to the design. Its going to boil down to raising a pipe off the back as ceasar showed or simple drilling through the back and out.
Just as a side thought and no beating on me. I want to design this as a sand substraight that will work as we hae been doing, but the BB in me is strong yoda, lol Imagine running this with just a bit of CC on top and keeping a pump running on it all the time, say with an inline filter to capture the waste/detritus. It would all get sucked through the plenum and out to a inline filter...wooo hooo, talk about no detritus on the bottom, lol.......Ok I will never mention that again....in this thread...rofl
Mike
Katchupoy
Well-known member
Szidls,
thats is a very good idea. But, we also need to make is as simple as possible. We should be very carefull not to disturb the underside by pushing too much water to it. Also remember, we have two approaches in making water move prior to suction. 1) a pump that is located outside of the plenum. This will suddenly pump so much so of water in seconds getting water from outside to underside of the plenum thus creating a pressure. A pressure that might create an unpredictable results. Like blowing water to the nearest and easiest outlet it can find...(like a lava on a volcano) 2) Another approach is to put the PH inside the plenum system. In this way, it will get or suction the water only from the underside and going to the same space.... thus like a closed loop within the system. This could very well work but what if the pump needs service, or something happened to it. Without it will make the system less efficient.
Thats why it is very important to make it as simple as possible.
thats is a very good idea. But, we also need to make is as simple as possible. We should be very carefull not to disturb the underside by pushing too much water to it. Also remember, we have two approaches in making water move prior to suction. 1) a pump that is located outside of the plenum. This will suddenly pump so much so of water in seconds getting water from outside to underside of the plenum thus creating a pressure. A pressure that might create an unpredictable results. Like blowing water to the nearest and easiest outlet it can find...(like a lava on a volcano) 2) Another approach is to put the PH inside the plenum system. In this way, it will get or suction the water only from the underside and going to the same space.... thus like a closed loop within the system. This could very well work but what if the pump needs service, or something happened to it. Without it will make the system less efficient.
Thats why it is very important to make it as simple as possible.
hmmm....
I would be in favor of more of a "passive" system...ie one you could hook an external pump to only when needed for removal (and maybe flushing) The fewer the parts inside the system, the fewer the parts you have to worry about getting to for service, failure, ect...
I also agree that the underside of the system should not be disturbed any more than necessary....
MikeS
I would be in favor of more of a "passive" system...ie one you could hook an external pump to only when needed for removal (and maybe flushing) The fewer the parts inside the system, the fewer the parts you have to worry about getting to for service, failure, ect...
I also agree that the underside of the system should not be disturbed any more than necessary....
MikeS
Katchupoy
Well-known member
Ok here is a sample of a 12 inch or 1 foot module.
Also, I increased the height of the collector so the pitch will be a lot higher compared to the previous one without changing the 2 inch overall height.
Also, I increased the height of the collector so the pitch will be a lot higher compared to the previous one without changing the 2 inch overall height.
Katchupoy
Well-known member
mojoreef said:
Ok, back to drawing board again...
You already mentioned the height ... what about the width?
RedEyeReef
Well-known member
mojoreef said:
Yeah you got me there, it will not be easy but hey half the reason I am in this hobby is to tinker and make my reef better.
I really like where this is going. I think the plenum at about 12" will work fine. At 4†wide I would need like a 1000 of these for my reef and much bigger then 12†might not settle the detritus well. What about this, the base of my tank is 96" x 36". Would 3 of these plenums 12" wide with the Vee running the 96" length work? I can't see why a long Vee would be hindered. I can see where a wide Vee would be.
I think gravity will be more then enough to pull the detritus out of the plenum. I personal would like to use this for water changes, turn a Tee valve under the tank and let the crappy water run out. Going off Mojo’s idea, if a pump is used continuously (back to a big undergravel filter) then have it feed a skimmer? The rebirth of undergravel filters would not be the first thing in life to come full circle. Who knows... maybe I am way off base???
Witfull
Well-known member
on the idea of recirculating....im not in favor of that, what about all the nasty gases and such that are a biproduct of denitrification,,,sulfides etc. i would want these pulled out and be gone with them.
also i think the 12" model will work for tanks that are multiples of 12...55g,120g, but what about the half sizes..70g,125g,150g? also the model will have to be just shy of 12" or whatever the design # will be due to allowance for the edges to have the sand between the glass and model...to block light from entering the plenum, and for astetics.
also i think the 12" model will work for tanks that are multiples of 12...55g,120g, but what about the half sizes..70g,125g,150g? also the model will have to be just shy of 12" or whatever the design # will be due to allowance for the edges to have the sand between the glass and model...to block light from entering the plenum, and for astetics.
Katchupoy
Well-known member
Originally posted by mojoreef
Ceasar I dont think me and you are on the same page. The Vee will be about an inch thick, the top plate of this will be perferated with holes, the chamber inside the the Vee will be seperated into three sections.when the suction is put to the inside of the Vee, all the detritus has to do s to get sucked into the closes hole, once their the size of the chamber should provide the suction required to get the detritus out. the egg crate placed on top is thier to create more of an anaerobic zone for dentirifcation. the detritus if very light and should suck easy.
On the removal from the tank, we have to get past this plenum design first, then we can plumb to the design. Its going to boil down to raising a pipe off the back as ceasar showed or simple drilling through the back and out.
Mike
Ok here is the updated diagram...
Ceasar I dont think me and you are on the same page. The Vee will be about an inch thick, the top plate of this will be perferated with holes, the chamber inside the the Vee will be seperated into three sections.when the suction is put to the inside of the Vee, all the detritus has to do s to get sucked into the closes hole, once their the size of the chamber should provide the suction required to get the detritus out. the egg crate placed on top is thier to create more of an anaerobic zone for dentirifcation. the detritus if very light and should suck easy.
On the removal from the tank, we have to get past this plenum design first, then we can plumb to the design. Its going to boil down to raising a pipe off the back as ceasar showed or simple drilling through the back and out.
Mike
Ok here is the updated diagram...
Katchupoy
Well-known member
Modifications Mike, I positioned the left and right suction pipes near the wall of the chamber as you can see. Reason is since this is the lowest part of the chamber, this is where will be the detritus will go.
Witfull
Well-known member
looks good!
zeltar
Proud new papa....
Katchupoy said:
I like the design but I ask myself if I were building it; Is the top plate even necessary? If it were that perferated (sp?) it would not help with the suction so why not eliminate it. You could just use a long horiz. piece at the front and back to support the "v".
Just my thoughts, great thread.
Scooterman
Well-known member
LOL you guys got this thing figured out yet?
Nice work guys, getting better.
Nice work guys, getting better.
OK Ceasar that is what I was kind of invisioning. On the length and width of the unit. I dont know if the unit could go a full length of the tank (pending on the tank). Can we not go front to back with a series of modules from thier. To be honest I dont know why a 2 foot mod wouldnt work. If the top plate was perferated, I dont think draw would be a problem.
On the drawing of water from the unit in order to suck out all the crude, I was thinking only about a gallon or two max. We dont want to screw around to much with the bacterial hierarchy in the bed, just help it along a bit with removing build up and keepng that top zone airated. It does not have to be 100% sucessful every use. The ammount of byproduct and build up will always be in a state of flux (result of the bacteria being in flux) so sometimes you might be 120% effective and others mayb 50%, but it should balance out as time passes. FOlks that use sand sediment are looking for natural reduction through nitrification and denitrification, so that should be the number one concederation in this system, what we want to do is to eliminate the negative effects that a dsb has.
Zeltar we need an ammount of zone for anaerobic processes, that and having the sand right on top of the plate will lead to clogging, an inherent problem conventional plenums have right now.
Dave on the side topic I throw i there, thier should be no nasties if you are running it constant, thier would also be no natural bacterial zones, beyond a thin layer of gravel for looks period. This would eliminae the need for lower flow in the reef tank, the waste and detritus insteed of being pushed abck into the water column wouold be sucked down through the plenum, then out to and inline filter to capture the particulate the back in to the tank. Kind like a closed loop on the bottom. but lets do another thread for this concept and keep this one on the biochemical cycle thing.
great thread folks.
Mike
On the drawing of water from the unit in order to suck out all the crude, I was thinking only about a gallon or two max. We dont want to screw around to much with the bacterial hierarchy in the bed, just help it along a bit with removing build up and keepng that top zone airated. It does not have to be 100% sucessful every use. The ammount of byproduct and build up will always be in a state of flux (result of the bacteria being in flux) so sometimes you might be 120% effective and others mayb 50%, but it should balance out as time passes. FOlks that use sand sediment are looking for natural reduction through nitrification and denitrification, so that should be the number one concederation in this system, what we want to do is to eliminate the negative effects that a dsb has.
Zeltar we need an ammount of zone for anaerobic processes, that and having the sand right on top of the plate will lead to clogging, an inherent problem conventional plenums have right now.
Dave on the side topic I throw i there, thier should be no nasties if you are running it constant, thier would also be no natural bacterial zones, beyond a thin layer of gravel for looks period. This would eliminae the need for lower flow in the reef tank, the waste and detritus insteed of being pushed abck into the water column wouold be sucked down through the plenum, then out to and inline filter to capture the particulate the back in to the tank. Kind like a closed loop on the bottom. but lets do another thread for this concept and keep this one on the biochemical cycle thing.
great thread folks.
Mike
zeltar
Proud new papa....
Actually, I meant to remove the top acrylic plate that is perforated and leave the eggcrate so you would still have the "void" between the bottom of the sand bed and the plate that would catch the detritus. Make sense? I will draw it up for clarity in a bit.
Witfull
Well-known member
i thought the idea was to recycle the water on the quarterly change,,hence my concern...there would be nasties then,,,,but as for the constant flow,,,i look forward to that discussion also. i am also sure that with pulling out a gallon or few that there will be considerable crud/sludge removed...for us OFR's have pulled UGFs out in the old days and saw what builds up under there.
Katchupoy
Well-known member
Mike, like Eric said, why do we need to have that upper part of perforated acrylic?
Thanks
Thanks
zeltar
Proud new papa....
Katchupoy, so do you understand what I was trying to say?
It would be easier to make with just the bottom plate and the vertical risers to hold the suction tubes. Then lay the eggcrate on top to make a level bed for the sand bed.
It would be easier to make with just the bottom plate and the vertical risers to hold the suction tubes. Then lay the eggcrate on top to make a level bed for the sand bed.
Ceasar, my thinking was that with the top plate it concentrate the flow and make it more even across the whole surface of the plate. I think this will create more balanced flow. remember we are not only concerned with sucking up the end product but are also looking to draw water down in through the sand substraight above and we want to do that evenly to.
Dave you are correct on the collection of water time frame for this project, I was just rambling about the next one, lol.
Zeltar I get what you were discribing now.
Mike
aquariumdebacle
electrolyte addict
Stirrin' up Somethin'
Hey Mikey!
Glad to see you on Board! I knew it would just take a couple of days of constant barage to get ya to cave!
I can't remeber what the details were for nixing my idea of a cone or inverted pyramid, but maybe we could revisit that design for the benefit of the others that weren't trapped in your truck!
THe design that I showed you for the upstream/downstream refugium that I desighned for my system has some unintended benefits that we might be interested in. The refugium is on top of the tank and fed with an air uplift. Detritus is accumulating in the fuge. that is bare bottom. the stagnant water is getting full of crud on the surface and bottom. I have it lit with two 40 watt bulbs. THe accumulation of (snot?) is being facilitated by sand-sifting gobies that turned the tank the color of 2% milk. It has settled now but the gobies keep the entire bed stirred to the point that the only place for the crud to settle is in the fuge.
I don't think this is the answer especially when we are talking calcification problems, but I think I can overload this system to a larger margin than would be expected.
I think the crushed coral and window screen design is the only one that will work for us in this paticular situation. Any type of fine mesh is going to clog over the time period in question (Five+ years?) THe larger particle size would not clog as easily but would require a much greater depth; an excess of 8 inches. This is still probabvly only going to delay clogging but in the 20+ year range it might not matter.
I guess we better bail Phil Spector out of jail now that the Ronettes are back together!
Hey Mikey!
Glad to see you on Board! I knew it would just take a couple of days of constant barage to get ya to cave!
I can't remeber what the details were for nixing my idea of a cone or inverted pyramid, but maybe we could revisit that design for the benefit of the others that weren't trapped in your truck!
THe design that I showed you for the upstream/downstream refugium that I desighned for my system has some unintended benefits that we might be interested in. The refugium is on top of the tank and fed with an air uplift. Detritus is accumulating in the fuge. that is bare bottom. the stagnant water is getting full of crud on the surface and bottom. I have it lit with two 40 watt bulbs. THe accumulation of (snot?) is being facilitated by sand-sifting gobies that turned the tank the color of 2% milk. It has settled now but the gobies keep the entire bed stirred to the point that the only place for the crud to settle is in the fuge.
I don't think this is the answer especially when we are talking calcification problems, but I think I can overload this system to a larger margin than would be expected.
I think the crushed coral and window screen design is the only one that will work for us in this paticular situation. Any type of fine mesh is going to clog over the time period in question (Five+ years?) THe larger particle size would not clog as easily but would require a much greater depth; an excess of 8 inches. This is still probabvly only going to delay clogging but in the 20+ year range it might not matter.
I guess we better bail Phil Spector out of jail now that the Ronettes are back together!
