Achilles Tang

[LakeEd]

Steve,

For my Christmas Present, I finally got an Achilles Tang. Knowing this was comming, I had setup and cycled a 40gal QT tank. I have added a Seio-1500 about 1/2 strength (vents partially closed, slowing down flow some) in this tank along with the HOB filter, for the added water movement the Achilles enjoy.

Reading your inputs here over the last year or so, as well as inputs from Leebca and others... I understand than Achilles may have some added troubles to watch for... namely being extreamly prone to Ick & Velvet.

With that in mind, I had picked up some Cupramine, and last Friday... started what I had hopped was a 14-day treatment.

To my shock and surprise, Saturday morning my fish was laying over on its side hardly breathing or moving! This is less than 12 hours with Cupramine in the tank!

In my panic, I did a quick 20gallon water change (50%). I also placed the Cupramine in my drawer out of sight! Later Saturday, I did another 20gal water change. Fish still barely hanging in there. I removed the Seio... hoping the very low flow of only the HOB filter might help the fish stay upright. Sunday, he still isn't breathing very well (fast rapid breathing), but at least he is trying to keep himself upright. Another 20gal water change. Monday, he is beginning to swim around the tank, another 20 gal water change... and I again turned on the Seio.

Tuesday, he is starting to once again be his ol self... swimming all over the tank, enjoying playing in the current, and finally starting to nibble at Nori again.

Pheeeewwww!!! My Better-Half names all my fish, and wanted to call him "Tear Drop"... which I didn't like at all. After all of this, she decided his name needs to be "Rocky". Being confused (I think she enjoys me in this mode), I ask why in the heck "Rocky"... and she says "He has the Eye of the Tiger... keeps on fighting". She is fixated on the teardrop on the Achilles and feels the name has to have something to do with that... but I guess I can live with "Rocky".

Okay... being me, I'm WAY TOO WORDY HERE... sorry!!!

Through all of this, the Achilles has had a spot above the drop on his right side... that doesn't appear to be Ick to me, but I have no clue what it might be, and how to best treat it... especially now with his reaction to the Cupramine. He does tend to rub this spot on the tubes in the QT tank as he swims, but not constantly. My camera is horrible, but after about 50 pictures, this one basically shows you the white place above, and just infront of his teardrop. The round blurs in the picture aren't on the fish... but tiny water splashes on the tank... sorry.

Other than having my water now slightly low in SG (1.019), the rest of my water parameters are normal... Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate all ZERO. pH 8.5. I understand that if I'm not going to do some type of coper treatment I need to drop my SG to treat for ICK... but not knowing the direction that I should be going yet, I haven't wanted to start dropping the SG quite yet.

Is this discoloration something that I need treat specially, or is it possiblly handling damage that will clear up on its own? Any help would be appreciated.

 

[leebca]

First, for using the proper sized QT for this fish, you deserve much credit. That is a good sized QT for this fish. However, you don't have to be too concerned about fast water movement. I would have just used three sponge filters and, for the QT time, they would provide enough circulation.

The initial reaction of the Tang could have been from the medication, but unlikely. These Tangs are particularly sensitive to water quality and the changes of pH. There could have been a matter of how it was acclimated.

These Tangs are also notorious for 'playing dead' when stressed. The move and acclimation would have been enough stress for the fish to be playing dead. I just put a Vlamingi Tang, Naso vlamingii into my QT two weeks ago. When I slipped the fish into the QT it was 'frozen' with mouth open. The expression you see on fish mounted on a board. It drifted to the bottom of the QT like a dead leaf. I looked at it and said, "Don't give me this cr@p, get busy!" And, as if it heard me, it unfroze and started swimming around.

Water changes not only reduced the copper content, but would have also reduced any other contaminant that may have been present. There was a possibility there was something else in the water?

Did you review how much Cupramine you added to the tank to be sure it was the correct amount for that volume of water? Is the Cupramine 'fresh' or from a previously opened bottle? There is, with every medication, an outside chance that you have a bad bottle or some of a bad batch. Seachem however has a fine reputation for quality control.

I just finished processing an Achilles Tang for a friend of mine. I perform acclimation according to my own posted procedure, then gave it a FW dip, then a Cupramine treatment. All is fine. However, in the dip, some parasites came off. Tangs often travel with these, so the dip on these fish I think is important.

Getting to the photo. . .You deserve credit for the photo, too. I know how hard it must have been to get a good shot of what you needed to show.

Tangs in general have a reduced mucous coating. What they do have is easily damaged. This could be damage from handling (either by net or transportation). Was the fish netted from where you got it? Did it struggle much? Did you watch the fish being netted and bagged?

Such damage can lead to a bacterial infection if the fish is low on resistance energy. You didn't indicate if the fish was eating or not. If the fish is not eating, I would be prepared by having antibiotics on hand. I prefer Maracyn Two for Saltwater fish as a first approach. If the fish is eating the proper diet then also provide the fish with immune boosters. See: http://www.reefland.com/forum/marin...ase-treatment/19728-fish-immune-boosters.html

To immediately take care of the damaged mucous coating, my recommendation is to obtain and use either Pro Tech Coat Marine or StressGuard.

Further, I would recommend:
Observe this patch. If it grows in size after the mucous coating treatment, then treat with the antibiotic. If the fish is not eating, then treat with the antibiotic along with the mucous coating treatment.

 

[LakeEd]

Lee,

I had this fish in my QT for exactly 1 week prior to starting the Cupramine (had to await its arrival from MarineDepot, during this busy holiday season). That entire time he was eating very nicely... about 1/8th of a sheet of Nori total daily, soaked pieces in Selcon, feed about 4 times during the day.

The only change that Friday evening to the QT tank, was my normal 5-gallon water change, then the addition of the Cupramine. When doing my water changes, I remove 5-gallons from the QT tank (toss), then use 5-gallons from my display tank to re-fill the QT.

I will start looking for the Pro Tech Coat Marine and/or StressGuard locally, and am definately watching this spot for any growth.

Thanks for the input. Will keep you informed.

 

[ronj]

WOW!!! that sounded like it was a close one Ed!!!!.if it happens again, send it my way J/K i'm glad to hear it made a comeback..i would have never expected that from this fish

 

[leebca]

Ed,

Make sure you're using new made up salt water in the QT for water changes, after the fish is put in. The fish isn't in quarantine if display tank water is being put into the QT.

I would contact Seachem. They are very customer oriented. Explain what happened and ask them to check into the lot of Cupramine you have. They may buy-back the bottle you have for their testing.

They will want to know how much you added. Are you sure you added the correct amount? Did you test the water with a copper test kit?

Keep us posted.

 

[LakeEd]

Lee,

Catching up on questions you asked, that I neglected to answer;

Yes, my LFS nets their fish when you purchase them there out of their tanks. I do understand there can always be problems when netting, however the owner of this store has more skill in netting fish than I thought possible. Even a very active Tang like this, which moves quicker than humanily possible, he was able to corner and catch in under a minute! I would say, as much as humanily possible, little net damage and/or stress was caused. Of course, this doesn't account for this tang's capture... which wasn't watched personally by me... or shipping stress, which is always there as well.

As for the amount of Cupramine used;
The bottle calls for 1ml per 10.5gallons of water. Having a 40gallon QT, and not wanting to over dose, I only added 3.25ml of Cupramine. Testing with a Salifert kit... this had me at .5(?). Not the most percise of test kits by Salifert... and after further investigating, I probably need to use Seachem's Copper test kit to accurately test when using their Cupramine.

 

[LakeEd]

WOW!!! that sounded like it was a close one Ed!!!!.if it happens again, send it my way J/K i'm glad to hear it made a comeback..i would have never expected that from this fish

I know how you are Ron... would ALWAYS find room for 1 more Tang... huh?

 

[leebca]

Ed,

I prefer the Salifert Test Kit over the Seachem Test Kit for copper testing of Cupramine. They correlate well enough. The Seachem Test Kit is not user friendly and not easy to read, IMO.

I never knew a Tang to respond like that to 0.5 ppm copper from a Cupramine treatment. There's always a first! :shock: Thanks for the information. I'll keep it filed.

Usually the net damage isn't in the catching phase (at the Wholesaler and LFS). It's in the caught phase and how much thrashing the fish does against the net once caught combined with the type of netting. Although any part of the fish can be harmed, the tail/posterior is more likely the target when the tail is used in an attempt to free itself.

 

[gbr]

FWIW, the dose that Ed added was 1/2 the total dose that would bring the tank to .5ppm. Seachem recommends that 1/2 the dose be used on day one. He was, if the bottle is correct, somewhere around .2ppm.

I would have to disagree with using fresh salt water for a QT. Using tank water should be fine.

 

[LakeEd]

Travis,

According to the Cupramine bottle, 1mL per 40L water (10.5 gallons), is the recommend dosage... and I don't recall anywhere starting out with only 1/2 dosage the 1st day???

In any case, this piticular Tang had what I would call a very nasty reaction to the coper, so it is no longer being used until I figure out exactly what I want to do from here.

 

[gbr]

http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Cupramine.html

From that link "Use 1 mL (top mark of enclosed dispenser) per 40 L (10.5 gallons*) the first day, wait 48 hours, then repeat for a total dose of 0.5 mg/L (in freshwater, use half dose). Leave at this concentration for 14 days. Do not redose without testing (MultiTest: Copperâ„¢)."

 

[LakeEd]

Being at work, I was running off my poor memory, and you all know how bad that is!

I just found that link as well Travis... thank you!

Of course, the Tang's reaction only confuses me more, with this being an even lower concentration than where I thought it was???

 

[Slickdonkey]

I second the recommendation for Salifert test over the Seachem, which I agree is hard to read. I also had a bad batch and I think Ron or someone else here did as well. Yes they replaced it, but in the meantime I had to go get the Salifert kit anyway to be sure the levels were correct.

Hope it works out for you Ed, I'll keep a watch on your progress since I'll be getting one of these guys too, and soon I hope.

 

[ronj]

one time,i added the whole amount in one day ..i was treating a naso tang..it was dead the next morning..i go by the directions now!!!.also, i think fresh salt water is definately the way to go in water changes...in the event of setting up a qt tank in a hurry, display water would be fine, but for WC's, it needs to be new water

I also had a bad batch and I think Ron or someone else here did as well.

yeah, i got a bad test kit..they replaced it (weeks after the copper treatment ended)

 

[LakeEd]

If I haddent run my 38gallons of Mixed water out, my normal water changes for the QT do, and will come from freshly made Salt Water... no worries.

Brian... sending you a PM.

 

[Hoopsguru]

How did you cycle the quarantine tank? Did you check for ammonia and nitrites before/during the bad reaction of the tang?

 

[LakeEd]

How did you cycle the quarantine tank? Did you check for ammonia and nitrites before/during the bad reaction of the tang?

I have had a sponge filter in my main tank's sump for over 2 months prior to having the QT setup. Put that sponge into a HOB filter... then feed small amounts of food as you monitor the Ammonia & Nitrite spikes... until they both drop. Then, your QT tank is cycled and ready for fish.

Watch Ammonia daily, and Nitrites probably a couple times a week. When all of this happen with my Achilles, that was one of the 1st things I did do, check my tests.

Update:

Rocky (Achilles) is still eating wonderfully, so starting hypo.

 

[steve-s]

What brand test do you use to check your ammonia and was it total ammonia or just free ammonia?
Do you use any ammonia detoxifiers of any kind (including change water)?
When performing your water chnages do you check temp, salinity and pH immediately before hand?

FWIW, you don't need to be concerned about nitrite.

 

[LakeEd]

Steve,

I use the Salifert Ammonia test kit... and honestly, I'm not sure if that tests total ammonia, or free???

No detoxifiers. With the exception of my large 50% water changes after this happened (which I took directly out of my main display tank), I am very careful to match Temp, Salinity & pH before my water changes. Well, I guess I should clairify part of that: I match Temp & pH to my QT tank, and I am very careful about mixing up my water to a SG of 1.025. I have noticed a slight, slow increase over the day in my QT's Salinity, due to evap... and have seen it as high as 1.026.

Right now, I'm slowly lowering my SG, by having my change water salinity at 1.015... and doing 5 gallon water changes (12.5% volum change) daily. I would rather change things slowly, and this QT time last a couple weeks longer, than take any chances by moving too fast. As of last night, my SG is down to 1.018, so I will probably be mixing change water down to about 1.010 for the next few days. (harder to keep pH up now though, I've noticed)

 

[LakeEd]

By the way Steve... Happy New Year, and welcome back home. I hope your time "off continent" was safe and enjoyable one!