Anyone ever thought about their own store??

[Achilles]

Sharks
I agree with that. I do know people will take advantage of an LFS in that way. I don't know if it is the majority or not, but I hope folks here don't do that. That being said, this problem is not unique to the LFS industry.

aquariumdebacle
Are you seriously going to make the claim that at employee at an LFS should charge between 150 - 300 per hour for advice? Look, if you contract someone to build you an aquarium and the going rate is 300 per hour it's not just for advice but also a finished product. To which the contractor is accountable and liable for. I work in an IT reseller and consulting firm. I've been in the IT world for 9 years now and have worked on contracts for a broad array of industries. Absolutley nowhere is the standard rate anywhere near 300 per hour. That's more than $600,000 a year, with the average IT professional only making $70,000 a year, that's one heck of a profit margin.

The fact that you are not paying for the advice of a local retailer is exactly my point. If you did pay for it like any other proffessional you would balk at the price and walk out the door.

Exactly what profession are you talking about? Every retailer of every product will give you advice, and all of it, of course, is free. This is hardly unique to LFSs. We sell IT products and constantly give free consulting to potential customers on various IT related topics. Not just trivial stuff either. Often we'll send a consultant to a client site for a day or so to evaluate a customer's needs, at no obligation. Trust me, that is a retail industry standard.

To say that they are not worth it, speaks volumes about your respect for others time and effort.

I absolutley never said that and resent the characterization. I did say they aren't accountable for the advice they give. Let's be honest here, LFSs are notorious for the advice they give. That's a general statement so of course it doesn't fit every LFS, but they are not acountable for their advice. You can bet if I was paying for their advice, and they gave misinformation, they would be held accountable. Like I said, I have a favorite LFS I go to because the people working there provide great service, they are knowledgeable, and I believe they have fair prices.

As for their time and effort, again silly. These people are being paid to be there, they aren't hanging around the store waiting to answer questions out of the goodness of their heart. And of course I appreciate any help that they may provide me.

It is personaly frustrating to see thread after thread about where to get the best deals when they are offering the products for a small amount more.

I can agree with that to some degree. Personally if the cost is a minor difference I'll go to the LFS, and typically I end up buying a few other things that I didn't intend. Sometimes, however, there is a huge difference in cost. I recognize that that is not neccesarily the fault of the LFS, but I can't justify paying significantly more for a product than I could get elsewhere, unless I need it right now.

If an LFS provides services to the club, the members should respect that, and try to send some business to that LFS, or as you say give them the first crack at a purchase.

I'm not surprised though to see threads about the best deals because this is an expensive hobby, and the disparity in prices can be quite severe.

 

[aquariumdebacle]

Hoe much does your time cost?

Professional going rates start at about $300/hr. Doctors, Lawyers, engineers, even managers at the top end of the spectrum all bill-out at this rate and higher. Even the $70k you describe is what the employee gets. The employer has to pay overhead on that (insurance, unemployment, etc.) The client is billed at a rate on top of that.

The impression I am getting is that emlpoyees/owners of LFS's are not considered professionals. They are only entitled to a minimum wage. The time, effort, and the education that they have invested must be compensated at the going rate of standard retail. What aspect of this hobby is standard? What contractor is going to give you detailed information about keeping specific corals alive? Are they going to explain to you that a certain coral needs lighting at a certain level. What about compatabilities?

To say that they are not held responsible is to shows your ignorance of the industry. They are continually asked to refund, due to losses, usually do to operator error. We ask alot from these people. We want to know very specific information and we want it for free. We seek out the best deals and undercut their business any way we can. We are all guilty of it, and yet we still complain about service and price.

These are all issues that a local fish store has to deal with. They also have to pay their rent, utilities, and employees just like everyone else. They are underappreciated and underpaid. So, to sum up, I have thought about opening my own fish store!

 

[Achilles]

Even the $70k you describe is what the employee gets. The employer has to pay overhead on that (insurance, unemployment, etc.) The client is billed at a rate on top of that.

LOL!!!! Yeah, I understand the concepts of profit and overhead, but trust me when I tell you, there would be an employee strike if companies could bill at 300 per hour (600K a year) for an employee making 35 per hour (70K a year). An IT professional earning around 35 per hour (70K) is going to typically be billed at 55 per hour (110K) - 100 per hour (200K), the large variance has to do with length of contract and other factors, but most will fall around 75 per hour (150K). I have used the service of Laywers, Doctors, Architects etc, and never payed near $300 per hour. Not saying that there are not professions where that is the case, but it is a tiny fraction of it. Think about all the services you've paid for in your life, repairman, healthcare, technicians, carpenters...if you ever paid $300 an hour in labor you were probably ripped off.

The impression I am getting is that emlpoyees/owners of LFS's are not considered professionals.

Again I never said that. They are professionals, they get paid, but they are professional retailers/sales people/clerks etc... unless they get paid for keeping and maintaining aquariums, then they are not professional aquarists. They may or may not be particularly knowledgeable about aquariums, reefs, corals, filters etc...

They are only entitled to a minimum wage.

Yet again, I never said that. They are entitled to whatever the stores feel their service is worth, and that will vary by the individual. I imagine in LFSs there is a broad array of employees in terms of experience and skill levels.

To say that they are not held responsible is to shows your ignorance of the industry. They are continually asked to refund, due to losses, usually do to operator error.

Legally, they are not responsible. Even though they are asked to give a refund, they certainly do not have to. If an LFS sells me shark that kills everything else in my tank, they are not obliged to give me anything. Even if they knew. However, if I pay them to assess my tank and pick me out a compatible fish, and I am given a shark....well that is a different story.

We seek out the best deals and undercut their business any way we can. We are all guilty of it, and yet we still complain about service and price.

Yes, that's called free enterprise. They have a choice of what services and products they want to sell and also how much to charge. If their prices are high then they better have good quality to offset it. If their service stinks then they better have the best prices around or be very convenient. Either way, choosing a vendor that provides you with the best value creates better stores in the long run. I work very hard for the money I earn to provide for my family, why should I give it to someone who isn't working just as hard to give me the best value? I've found an LFS that does provide me what I expect and more, so they get the vast majority of my business, but I'm not going to feel bad for buying something elsewhere if I think they are overcharging for a product. Other vendors are people too

We ask alot from these people. We want to know very specific information and we want it for free.

Yeah, but I ask the same from any retailer, online or not, that I choose to do business with. In fact, with online retailers I'm usually worse because of the inheret risk.

So, to sum up, I have thought about opening my own fish store!

Honestly, I've thought about it too. Especially after the finding a lack of good LFSs in my area, the LFS I use is a good hike, and they are open short hours so I can only go there on the weekends, yet I still go. So if you do open one up, consider Federal Way please Anyhow, I don't have the capital, and it would be too high risk for my blood, especially for the first few years at least. My next door neighbor runs some type of online camping gear rental business out of his house, I suppose that mitigates some of the risk and up front costs, but I don't know how well that would translate the aquarium industry.

If you do open up a store, let me know, and I'll be your first customer.

I noticed you have done some work with an LFS for providing live brine shrimp. Have you considered various pods and worms? The only vendors I know for those items are IPSF and Inland Aquatics, and they are very very expensive. I've personally cultured them in the past, and honestly once you set up a tank it is really quite easy. Seems like a local place could do well in that market. Well I guess that depends on how many folks are using DSBs.

 

[OnTheReef]

Re: frustration with my LFS

I have to second the frustrations some folks have voiced with the LFS's in our area. For example, I am currently plumbing a 100 gallon tank and decided, on the recommendations of a fellow reefer here, to use the Velocity T4 as the return pump. My LFS thought they could order it for me, but after two days of waiting, I called and they told me none of their suppliers carry it. (Why they don't just order from someone else, I don't know...) I next checked the PSAS sponsors and while one of them carries it, they are out of stock. This kind of wasted time and effort makes me inclined to just go straight to a large supplier and be done with it. But I will continue to try my LFS for most things. I do after all want them to stay around.

 

[skylsdale]

I can tell you how frustrating it is to NOT have an LFS near you. The closest reef shop I have is 3 hours west in Seattle or 3 hours east in Spokane. Hmmm....a few more snails would be nice. That'll have to wait until the next trip over. Want food other than flake? Road trip. Need anything reef related other than salt and the basic equipment like heaters and hydrometers? It's going to have to wait...maybe next week, maybe 3 months from now.

All I GOT is patience...

 

[aquariumdebacle]

That is my point, we get huge gains and wish to return little. You think nothing of what you pay a plumber, electrician, lawyer, doctor, chiropracter, etc. why do you short-change the people that are feeding your addiction? Whould short-change a bartender because the grocery store offers it for less?

 

[H3R0]

If they were to charge for advice you couldn't afford them. Think about a professionals going rate $150-$300 per hour.

That's just silly. You aren't paying them for advice, and if they want me to buy their product they better be able to explain it to me and answer my questions. Every retailer of every type of product will offer advice to a customer. BTW, those numbers are absurdly high for most industries. Not to mention LFS employees are hardly professional aquarists that are accountable for the advice they give.

One last thing worth pointing out...A quick look at the sponsor page shows several online retailers.

i cant agree with about anything you just said... i have worked at a pet store for the last 4 years, and learned alot. Aquariumdebacle is totaly right people like you would come in get your water tested, ask questions about a fish or something and buy it online... and we are ok with that but it does really hurt the stores, did you ever think about lost live stock, stolen stuff, time and patiences treating feeding testing and all the other stuff we have to do>? expecially if you run the tanks on seperate filters. then think about the time we the workers put in learning and studying? you may know about marine fish, but what do you know about reptiles or rodents or maybe birds? its alot to learn to be able to help anyone and alot of the time its not even for sales its for return, to keep the ones who apprecaite it coming back. i am here to help the people who want it, weather or not they will return. people should aprecaite it but i cant make them, i just hope they do... anyways i hope this helps you understand we need you just as you some time may need us

 

[H3R0]

also those companys like iap and some other that deal direct with the public hurt us too.... we buy stuff from them and it sits cause they also sell it to you, and they are not suppoused to but obviously they still do...


anyways just how i feel... thats my right
how you feel is yours

 

[Achilles]

i cant agree with about anything you just said...

I don't understand, you don't address anything in the quote, what don't you agree with?

Aquariumdebacle is totaly right people like you would come in get your water tested, ask questions about a fish or something and buy it online

People like me? What is that all about? I have never taken water to an LFS to be tested, although I believe it to be a valuable service. Nor have I ever asked an LFS questions about a fish and then bought it online. If I see a fish I'm unfamiliar with, I'm certainly not going to buy it that day. I may ask the LFS about it, but I'm also going to research it on my own. I do go to LFSs and purchase items quite regularly, far more than I do online especially with livestock.

did you ever think about lost live stock, stolen stuff, time and patiences treating feeding testing and all the other stuff we have to do>? expecially if you run the tanks on seperate filters.

So online retailers don't have to deal with this? I mean perhaps not theft, but they stock fish too, so they need to have someplace to put them.

then think about the time we the workers put in learning and studying? you may know about marine fish, but what do you know about reptiles or rodents or maybe birds?

Ahh, but that is the CHOICE of the LFS, they don't have to sell those items. And those that do, don't do it out of the goodness of their heart, they do it to make money, and if that affects the level of service I get there, then I'm certainly not going to feel bad for choosing someplace where I get better service because they specialize. Further, any knowledge an LFS employee has about reptiles is utterly useless to me if I'm asking him questions about a reef.

its alot to learn to be able to help anyone and alot of the time its not even for sales its for return, to keep the ones who apprecaite it coming back.

Again, this isn't anything unique to an LFS. This is called customer service and any retailer that wants to stay in business will need to have it.

So at what level does this end? I mean anytime you buy anything online, that you could've gotten locally you are taking away from a business. Of course the reverse is also true. When I choose to go to the grocery store instead of a restaurant, then I am hurting the restaurant. But that is my hard earned money, and until that restaurant helps me raise a family, maintain my home, help me at my job etc... then I'm not going to feel bad spending my money where I get the best value. If I don't feel like cooking then the restaurant is the best value, but if I do, the grocery store is the best value.

I just see this differently. You think I'm hurting you buy purchasing a product where I believe I'm getting a better value. Well, I disagree. The competition only makes you better in the long run, in fact it makes all the stores better in the long run.

Look, online livestock dealers in particular, are at a huge disadvantage when compared to an LFS. First the whole business of shipping livestock adds a good bit of risk to the purchase. Then the fact that you usually can't see the specimen, let alone observe or inspect it. Also, unless you are buying a bulk item, they are almost always more expensive once shipping costs get added. Lastly, you have to wait at least a day, sometimes longer to get your livestock, and we are not a patient society. Now many of them compete by offering stuff not as regularly available, the Marine Center is source for items that you don't get to see very often at LFSs. Others offer only small number critters that they can get easily and cheaply with and sell in high volumes. Or they offer only exceptionally high quality livestock (which often demands an exceptionally high price) with a high profit margin. Either way they all need to bring something of value to the table or people aren't just going to take the risks.

also those companys like iap and some other that deal direct with the public hurt us too.... we buy stuff from them and it sits cause they also sell it to you, and they are not suppoused to but obviously they still do...

What do you mean not supposed to? Are they not a licensed retailer? If they are violating the law, then notify the authorities. Otherwise, you are the customer here, if you don't like what they are doing, make them change. A good way to do that is to quit buying their products and even return your stock. If they won't accept the stock as a return, next time negotiate the terms better, in fact generally you should make sure when you buy from them that they are contractually unable to undercut your prices. That is standard practice. IAP has competitors too, perhaps you can work out a deal with one of their competitors, that tends to get a business's attention.

 

[aquariumdebacle]

flames?

Your thread is approaching the level of flamage. My experience has been great at Midway. I bought a marine betta several years ago that is up in a barber shop on Queen Ann hill. This not the place to "make businesses better." We are here to share ideas and information about hte hobby. The points that you bring up are the very reasons most of us don't want to open up a store of our own. Let's face it if you came in with the attitude that some of your threads have, I would show you the door and ask you to patronize my competitor. Customer service is the most difficult and expensive part of any business. It shouldn't be wasted on people looking for the cheapest price.

 

[Achilles]

Your thread is approaching the level of flamage. My experience has been great at Midway.

This isn't my thread, nor have I flamed anyone. In fact I have not personally attacked anyone or any store. The same can not be said for other posters. I also never named any stores in this thread, that would be inappropriate in the context of this conversation.

This not the place to "make businesses better." We are here to share ideas and information about hte hobby.

I'm not trying to make business better, and I'm not the one who took the thread in this direction. I am defending folks who were ridiculed for supposedly undermining their LFS, for wanting to get together and place a wholesale order through an online vendor.

Let's face it if you came in with the attitude that some of your threads have, I would show you the door and ask you to patronize my competitor.

I haven't prejudged anyone. The attitude I have was formed based off experience . Some LFSs in this area are good, some are not based off of my experience. I think you could say that about any business. Overall I'm frustrated about it because I feel I have to drive a good distance to find a store that meets my needs. No one is more excited than me when I hear of a new place that I didn't know about before, or if a place that I've had poor service with in the past, is attempting to fix that problem. I'm a reasonable and open minded person, I doubt you'd find the need to throw me out.

Customer service is the most difficult and expensive part of any business. It shouldn't be wasted on people looking for the cheapest price.

Please go back and re-read my posts, you are misunderstanding me. I go to the place that provides me the best "value". Value does not just mean cheapest price, it is a combination of product, convenience, service and support. Further why do you think that a place that provides the cheapest price has poor service? I realize that is a common stereotype, but they are not mututally exclusive properties.

 

[MtnDewMan]

To me this thread turned into a good reason why we do not like store owners or people who work at stores post about their own stores and try to defend their practices or LFS practices in general. It inevitably will come to personal attacks or perceived personal attacks. There were posts made here that were basically in a defending nature of a store and their particular practices from store owners or employees. Kind of like trying to advertise about their store and the way they do business. I do not agree with store owners or their employees always talking about how good they are and how good their prices are and how they are either out competing or being out competed by their competition on this board.

We don't condone that kind of advertising of their establishments. I believe a true disservice to the actual store they work for can be made, unfortunately sometimes without the store owners consent. If advertising of their store is what they are after, they should feel free to sponsor the site and they can get direct inquiries from the users of this board instead of general we do they do types of discussions.

This post is not meant to flame or be flamed, just stating that we here at PSAS do not condone commercial advertising of their operations because it can certainly lead to discussions that can go off topic and too personal in nature, especially when one store is putting down another store who may happen to sponsor this site as well. It is not called for and doesn't belong in our discussions. Healthy discussions of practices in general, the likes and dislikes of LFSs in the area from the hobbyist is great, but not from the owners and employees of the area stores, then the problems start to arise.

This is my .02 cents worth.

 

[oregon gorge]

Starting LFS

Well, I learned long ago I could not do that route. We had a favorite LFS in Portland and we would drive 110 miles each way twice a month to shop there. Now we sould go to the other shops, and that reinforced our practice of pretty much staying with one.

After being up here for 7 months, I was really disapointed in what I found. Several of the shops have not had anything new in several weeks. One had their corals bleaching and they argued that they were just unhappy from LR being added. I dont go back there.

last weekend we found just what this thread talks about. A couple turning their hobby into a business. Very nice folks, in their basement. Pretty good selection and prices. Questions and anwers about experiences, likes, tank habits etc. It is 52 miles, but take longer than the 110 in Portland Traffic from Sumner to N. Seattle yuk!

We ordered several things and took several more home. Went back on shipping day to p/u order and see what else came in. It seems others have found them too Already had many things sold. Just hours of getting it off the plane. Thats good for them. And in the long run for us too. If they can grow at a controlled rate and deal with being tied to the house? I hope so!

Chris

 

[reeffan]

How about having an on-lne store? I would say you'll probably save tons of money on doing this instead of paying monthly rent. Just a thought.....

reeffan :silly:

 

[Sealab2021]

if you're doing dry goods sure, but livestock with an "arrive live" guarantee is probably best left to suppliers (& probably the reason why there aren't any brick&mortar purely retail fish stores that do it)

 

[Sati]

Wow, my head hurts after reading this thread. So much for fishy dreams!

Oh, also, one more thing... As far as cost goes, not everybody can afford to pay a few dollars more for everything. I personally have never bought anything online. I would buy BioSpira because the lfs never has it. But the reason I don't have a saltwater tank is because I simply can't afford it. I would love to have a nice tank this very minute, but the startup costs are more than I can afford. When I do start my first sw tank it will be fish only for a while so that I can at least start learning about and enjoying the fish. A reef tank will have to come later. I just want to remind you all that although this is wonderful hobby, we still have to pay rent and eat! :]

 

[cheeks69]

Although I would like to support LFS's I have been disappointed in my LFS many times and rarely buy anything there anymore. I got into this hobby without really knowing much about it. I would go to that particular LFS and they would take advantage of me and my lack of knowledge and I'm partly to blame for that . They sold me sick fish, equipment I didn't need they sold me 2 manderins and told they are very hardy and easy to care for. If I wouldn't have done research and found an online community similar to this one I would've given up on this wonderful hobby. I'm not saying that they are all like this one because I eventually found one that cared about keeping their customers and was very helpful and patient with me, but they are the exception IMHO.

P.S I have thought about starting my own FS but not in the near future.

 

[aquariumdebacle]

You are totally resonsible ,you relied on bad advice and your fish suffered for it. I've been there and it is not pleasant. Learn as much as you can and then you can smokem' out before they get to ya'

 

[kevinpo]

The problem with most LFS is that they either have a good businessperson in charge or a good hobbyist but seldom both.
With a good business plan and current information about the hobby it is possible to compete with the online retailers.

My advice for those considering opening a store is to write a mission statement, business plan, and sales forecast first. Then get a couple of online catalogues like Marine Depot and Custom Aquatic and plug in the prices of the products you plan to carry plus shipping.

You can also look around to get some idea of what retail space goes for in the area you plan to open in, so you can plug some numbers into your business plan.

The Small Business Administration (SBA) has a free CD with all the above-mentioned templates (plus more) to help you.

If after plugging in the numbers you can still make a living then you can proceed. You need to plan on no salary for 6-9 months until word gets out about you.

There are brick and mortar stores (I'm one) that sell online livestock. I have no fear of online retailers and keep both of the above suppliers catalogues under my counter and show pictures from them of products I can get as I cannot afford/have space to stock all the products they can. I will also order products for my customers from them if I can't find it wholesale and sell it to them for the price in the catalogue plus shipping.

IMO a business should reflect the pride and integrity of the owner. If that means declining a sale of a pair of mandarins that aren't eating prepared foods to a customer with 12 gal eclipse so be it.

I have built and managed telecom plants in several countries (Mexico (2), Poland, Brazil, and England and even worldwide business are pretty much the same as are the people.

I hope this post might help or encourage someone to take the plunge into owning his or her own business. All businesses operate on the same principals even though each has their own particular quirks.

Regards,
Kevin

 

[mojoreef]

Whoa what a long thread, lol. First off owning a LFS is not a very well paying job and is a tough act to do. Congrates to those that do and survive.
On a second concept it is a biz and operates under the same principles that most retial stores do. Customers (folks like us) have the choice to spend thier money anyway they want. Its up to the LFS or the online guys to compete for thier biz. Fair? unfair? doesnt really matter in the retail world. If a LFS supports me and treats me well with pricing and service they will get my biz. If I can get it cheaper or better online, thier I will go. its relly as simple as that. I dont see any flames going on here and would like to curb anything from getting personal. I see both arguements as having some sound founding but the bottom line is that it is the customers choice to buy from them and the stores choice on how to keep them in the door. Most all of the cost of critters and products are the same for the online guys as it is for the local guys, from thier each sets thier profit margins.

Life goes on.

Mike