Becoming a statistic

[golfgoofey]

Good Day Anthony, Due to recent tank problems, SPS die off to be specific. I have spent a considerable amount of time researching, trying to find a solution to my 3 1/2 year old tank's sudden decline. In doing so, I continue to have die off. I am finding it difficult, having no success, watching this slow process. I have increased the volume of weekly water changes, increased to wet skimming, changed carbon weekly. I am now doing all water test 2 times a week as opposed to bi monthly. Since I have always dosed 2 part add. I have regularly tested for alk. calc. and mag 2 times per week, unless I add new corals then I increased those test to determine any new requirements. The only suggested remedy I have yet to use is to run a phosphate remover due to my fear of over doing it and adding additional stress. For the lack of a better way of asking. Does there come a time when one must admit defeat so to speak, and take the drastic measures of more or less starting over by doing a tank tear down. My thought is to QT my remaining corals and rebuilding. FWIW, I'm not suggesting getting out of the hobby. Any input will be much appreciated. Thanks

 

[Krish]

Welcome to RF golfgoofey! Sorry to hear about your troubles...Hopefully Anthony will be able to get you all sorted out. Don't give up man...There's always a solution with this hobby

 

[ronj]

have you changed lighting? bulbs? change water sources?used aerosol sprays close to your tank? also check up close for coral eating critters? just a thought

 

[golfgoofey]

Thanks for the words of encouragement Krish. I am by no means thinking of giving up. It's more a feeling of helplessness, and it seems that all I can do is sit and watch as things continue to die 1 or 2 corals at a time. In my search for a solution I have yet to come across anything that has led to anyone's success. I have to believe it's out there. But, what has given me my recent thought process is that it appears that while others have had the same questions, I have been unable to find any follow up, so it got me to thinking that perhaps they gave up or lost the battle. As far as changes, I'm using a dual 250w MH fixture that I've had since before I ever got my 1st sps frag. The current bulbs are XM 10,000K that were purchased new in mid- Nov. of 05. The only change I've made is switching to Tropic Marin pro reef salt after my problems began. I don't use any type of aerosols in the area of my tanks. I use diluted vinegar sprayed onto a paper towel to clean the outside glass and have all tile floors that I steam clean and occasionally use hot water only to mop up spills. I've had the corals looked at through a magnifying glass out side the tank by myself and others searching for signs of predators. As a matter of fact I took another coral to a lfs today that started showing signs of decline on Wed evening and they are at a loss also.

 

[Krish]

Wow man...Maybe you should post up some info on your tank like the size of it, your nitrate, phosphate, magnesium, calcium, alk, specific gravity etc. levels, if using ro/di water, the kind of sand bed you are running if any and if so, subsrtate type, water temp, and so forth. It may be (and hopefully is) something simple that you may just be missing. A friend of mine here in the Bahamas who's father owns one of the LFS here, had taken over the responsibilty of maintaning a 300 gal tank because everything kept dieing. What he found after racking his brains forever was someone dropped a few nails into the sump that were all rusted out! Not sure if that will cause a tank to crash, but in this case ever since he did a full water change and removed the nails, the tank is running fine...So my point is, there are so many little things can cause a tank to decline so I figured you may as well post up some info on your tank now, so when Anthony chimes in, he will know what he is working with...I wish you all the best man...Wish I knew all the answers, but I'm still learning... I will follow along and see what I can gather here and if anything stands out to me. It's just strange that things were going well for a while and then after 3.5 years started declining...Hopefully like I said, it's something simple

 

[LakeEd]

Golfgoofey,

I agree with Krish. Tell Anthony as much about your tank setup as possible, so he can hopefully give you some help. The more information about your setup you post before he responds to you, the better his response can be for you.

Good luck, and keep us all posted. Best wishes go out to you that an easier solution than a complete tear-down is soon to be found!

 

[golfgoofey]

I can do that, but 1st let me say that the 3 1/2 yr. comment is the reason for the thread topic. In researching, Anthony was advising someone to be more dilligent about water changes so they don't become a 3 1/2 staststic like so many others. Here's my tank: The tank was purchased new Feb.9, 2003 and all equipment has been upgraded as my tank has progressed.
90 gal RR AGA corner overflow
4 stage RO/DI filters replaced twice a year
Mag 12 return w/ 2 Tunze 6000 on multi controller
30 gal sump w/filter sock and carbon bag changed monthly until prob, now wkly
Dual 250w MH fixture 10,000k bulbs
Lifereef 24 in sump skimmer
3" crushed coral SB (a concern)
approx.100lbs live rock
3 fish purple tang, a mean maroon clown, and a red flame hawk. the very 1st fish I put in the tank.
Sal. 1.025
Temp 78.3-80.1
PH 8.10-8.16 lights off and on
Amm. 0
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0
Alk 4.00
Calc 440
Mag 1500
Phos <0.03 a little concern
I've only ever used salifet test kits. All test were done yesterday approx. 4 hrs after a 25 gal. water change. Just prior to a WC I stir up the CC bed as well as blow off the LR with a small PH. I've been doing this since the beginning. I usually wait until the water clears after a water change to replace the filter sock. I clean them as soon as they are removed and wash them evey 2 mos. with bleach and rinse twice and allow to completely dry before using. I make replacement water either Wed. or Thurs. eve for Sat WC's and test Fri. eve for Alk, Calc, and Mag. I also keep an air stone in the water and I switched from IO to Tropic Marin Pro Reef salt shortly after my problems began. The only softies in the tank came as hitchhikers, a large frilly mushroom and green star polyps. The tank was kept as a FOWLR for the 1st yr. I then added some zoos, and ricordias. My 1st sps frags were added in late summer of 2004. Around Jan. 05 all softies were removed with the exception of the hitchhikers. That's the history of my tank. I have tried to be patient and stock slowly with mostly frags. My troubles began several months after buying 8 small colonies, large frags from a local respected reefer that was downsizing. There have been floods and casualties along the. I've been mad and disappointed mostly in myself but this is the 1st time I'm honestly discouraged.

 

[golfgoofey]

I'd like to state for the record. I take full resposibility for my current situation. The above mentioned 8 corals bought locally, because of where they came from were never dipped, only acclumated for 2 hrs using a drip. I'll admit I have never QT'd. FWIW, I am now the proud owner of a 29 gal. setup except lights to be used for QT.

 

[LakeEd]

Golfgoofey,

Hang in there! I'm sure once the weekend is over, Anthony & others will start chiming in here with some ideas to help.

I have only had a tank now for about 2 1/2 years... and am just not starting to switch things over from a Softie tank, to a SPS dominated tank... so unfortunately I don't have any experience to help here. I just didn't want you to post here, and then due to the weekend not receive a response and get even more frustrated.

I think you'll find the information and people on this forum to be very helpful... and with all the information about your tank you've given now, they will have a super place to start from!

 

[golfgoofey]

Thanks Ed,
I'm hanging in there. Being new to these forumns I have noticed that our fellow reefers tend to stay on topic and try and be helpful as opposed to pointing out faults which I appreciate. I didn't really think of the weekend aspect though I did consider what Anthony's schedule must be like and I can only imagine if he is not extremely disciplined as to his time mgt. it would be very easy to spend all his time helping us. Besides that, I specifically sought him for his guidance.

 

[les]

A friend here had some corals die off or at least start to die off last year. He found that the city had started adding some things to the water that the RO-DI wasn't getting out very well. ( I can't remember what though) Its just a thought. I would also check out whether the are any heavy metals in the water. And if there is someone local who can test for that I would persue it.

 

[Ed Hahn]

a few ideas, hope this helps

Hello,
things that grab my attention are your alkalinity a little high for my liking.
I like 2.8-3.5. Your magnesium should be 1420ppm if your calcium is 440ppm. Should be 3xCalcium ppm =Magnesium PPM.
If you have a build up inside your crush coral substrate, it could be causing problems too.
Things that come to my attention when corals bleach are..

Here it is from Eric Bornemans work.


Bacterial bleaching - Vibrio shiloi Low light or darkness
Chemicals - pollutants, metals, pesticides, contaminants Endolithic fungii
Ciliates - unknown type and role

Table 1: Known Causes of Coral Bleaching.
The following list has support in scientific studies as contributing alone, in combination, or synergistically to the signs associated with coral bleaching.
Hyper salinity
Coccideans - unknown type and role Hypo salinity
High temperature - sustained or short-term increase Drugs
Low water motion (stagnant water, doldrums) Competition
High irradiance - sustained or a rapid increase Sedimentation
Ultraviolet radiation - sustained high levels or a rapid increase Starvation
Rapid change in temperature - higher or lower Physical injury or stress

 

[golfgoofey]

Something in the water, that made me laugh, and not the ha ha laugh. My exgirlfriend who got me into this hobby does payroll for the city. I'll call her today and see if she can find anything out for me. Maybe I can even get her to get them to do a water analysis for me. If not I'll try to get a TDS meter. As for the alk, calc, and mag those specs aren't to far off from freshly mixed salt water. I don't keep track of them specifically but I do know that all I add is alk to bring it up to my above mentioned specs and then dose according to my tanks needs. I don't have any mixed that I haven't added alk to or I would test. I'll mix a little tonight to test and post the results. The symptons aren't bleaching though. As for the crushed coral, I can't argue that concern as it is one of mine. Everytime I have considered changing it, the tank seemed to be doing so well and I had the fear of disrupting it and causing problems. You can only imagine how mad I'll be at myself if it turns out that the cc is the problem. Yet, that is part of my thought process concerning tearing down the tank and rebuilding.

 

[Ed Hahn]

Golfgoofy,
One thing I see every now and then is people touching one coral and then going to other coral. Corals fight for territory. Their defense is often a slime. One slime from a different coral can cause bleaching or worse. Its always a good practice to clean your hands between corals or before going into your tank.
I hope this helps,
Ed

 

[Carl]

Do you have kids? I only ask because of the possibility that a penny got dropped in the tank or fuge. How are the rest of the inverts in tank?

Carl

 

[golfgoofey]

Hi Ed,
I'm pretty good about washing before going into the tank, but at best, I'll just rinse with hot water between plunges. One of the hardest bad habits I've had to break is to stay out of the tank, rearranging and such. Besides, with the attack clown, I'm sure it's only a matter of time until he draws blood.

Now for an update:
How I spent my Monday or It's good I'm a driving fool,
Went into the office, left to go on a sales call, stopped and borrowed a TDS meter, made sales call, stopped at home did readings. They make no sense.
3 readings of each over 1 hour
Home water 152 141 158
stored water 062 042 059
water out of RO/DI unit 025 015 021
Remove filters from unit, return to office, drive across town to buy filters, and check calibration. Am told the readings shouldn't be like they are but the filters don't look that bad. But all filtered water readings should be 0. Drive back across town new filters in hand. Recheck stored water and got readings of 19. Install new filters, let run for approx. 15 mins. Readings "0" Nothing left to do except dump old water and start making new water. Except, when I emptied out the old water I noticed hard brown spots and streaks inside the container that were so hard I had to scrub them off with an algae pad.

I wonder if between the bad RO/DI water and the brown stuff in the containers is what my problems stem from. I had the same build up in both my top off container and the container I use for water change salt water. They are both rubbermaid brute 45 gal trash cans and I can say without a doubt they have only been cleaned once when I first bought them. Is it possible that between the bad water and brown stuff is the cause of all my problems. And if so, shouldn't I have had a major algae outbreak before corals started dying. I have learned that my storage containers need to be cleaned and I admit it's never crossed my mind to do so. So as I sit here waiting to have enough water to do a water change, what is recommended, several large changes over the next several days, say 20-25 gal. or about 10 gal. a day for a couple of weeks. Thanks to all of you that have offered advice and support. I'll keep you updated as to how things progress.
Jeff

 

[golfgoofey]

Hi Carl,
No kids, I'm single and have lived alone since last Sept. I lost a girlfriend and ended up with a 180 gal. FOWLR and a 30 gal cube of softies plus the 90 I'm trying to deal with. The invert population seems to be healthy and I haven't noticed any die off of them. It's hard to get a good count with so much live rock though.

 

[LakeEd]

Jeff,

IF this is the cause of your problem... it sounds to me like you were possiblly making water one day... and your City was "Flushing Water Main" in your area... and trashed your RO/DI filters.

This hasn't happened to me, but at my friends house... they were "flushing"... and even the water comming out of his tap was running rust color. After that rust color cleared... he took a sample of the water into work, and found a very large ammount of Fluoride in the water. I'm not sure if our RO/DI units would of removed that much Fluoride if I had wanted it to... or what it might of done to the filter once it was no longer present in the water.

I have heard that Fluoride is a VERY toxic chemical... making me wonder why they ever thought of painting it on kids teeth, with all the bad it could do.

Please keep us informed as to any progress you happen to make!!! Hopefully Anthony will see this soon, and have some more ideas for you to look into.

 

[golfgoofey]

Ed,
It's possible, I live outside of Orlando and we have a city owned and operated water system. In all my running today I didn't get a chance to call to inquire. It was suggested to me that usually water systems flush and add things at night, which if true, isn't good for me at all because I usually run my RO/DI water early in the morning before work. I will keep this updated as I find it frustrating when you follow threads and there is no follow up whether it's good or bad results. I'm hopeful that Anthony will have the oppurtunity at some point to respond as well.
Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Ed Hahn]

I hope your problem is solved.

Jeff,
There are so many things that can stress a coral. When a person buys a coral I wonder if they ask about lighting(wattage, Kelvin of bulb), flow, location of coral they just purchased. Usually its a good practice to put a new coral on bottom of the tank and work it up slowly.
Another thing I see if people not doing proper water changes. I always ask people to premix externally with heater and power head. Bring the temperture up to same as inside the tank. Make sure the salinity is the same before you dump into the tank. Sometimes just dumping fresh water into a Saltwater Aquarium can put corals on the defense. The one that comes to mind is the Bali Slimer. If you have a trash can for mixing I am sure you know this.
Sometimes a aquarium can be too clean also. Corals need to be fed.
I wish you luck,
Ed (the other Ed, Special Ed) lol