Better flow: Closed loop or power heads?

[Rhodes19]

Hi All,

Which system offers better flow characteristics given the same gph, closed loop or power heads?

I have 3 power heads, a koralia 4 (1200 gph at 12w), a Koralia Evolution (1400 gph at 6w), and a Sicce 4 (1600 gph at 14w) in my 180 and was looking at replacing them with a CL system hanging under the top rim of the tank with an external pump. My power heads push 4200 gph at 32w combined and a comparable external pump would use about 180w. I like the cleaner look of CL and I want more flow to keep the detritus in the water column for filtration but I don't want a higher electric bill. If there isn't much of a difference, I'll probably stick with the power heads but if there is a bigger flow benefit using a CL, I'll go that way. What do you all think? Thanks.

 

[07FocusST]

Well just in case I have a Reeflo Dart for sale over here in Washington.... I prefer a CL system myself.

 

[Chichas01]

I ran a CL spray bar for a while and then removed it to replace with 2 Tunze 6025's. Uses way less elcetricity and I get about 400GPH more flow in a wider pattern. Much happpier with this.

 

[Krish]

It's a toss up. Closed loops can be a bit easier on the eyes depending on how it is done and then the use of lockline allows you to point your flow in any direction you want. Powerheads like tunzes will give a wider pattern as opposed to a closed loop which gives more of a directional type flow. I've had both setups and to be honest, it's all about placement. Both can provide what you are looking for. I did love my 38 gal best though which was a closed loop setup!

 

[Frankie]

Funny how the two threads differ from site to site Chris

These people here are what I call tough reefers. Not to many shy reefers on this site and most would prefer to drill holes in there tanks. On the other site most rather spend more and do less work.

Like Krish said, it's a toss up on this topic. It really comes down to what your looking for and how far are you willing to go to get the results your looking for.

 

[Skimmy]

I personally HATE closed loops...
first off, they are expensive when you do them right(with xl external pumps,unions and gate valves)
they increase the points of failure exponentially,
small nozzel outlets provide flow that is not appropriate comparatively to gentler wide pattern outlets of pro powerheads(tunze,vortec),
and I hate looking at locline in the system... it's unsightly and IMO it's much easier to hide tunze or vortec poerheads behind rockwerk in a gyre configuration.
also, closed loops get totally clogged with calcium and must be taken apart and cleaned annually, as well as replaced every 5 years or so.
and the power consumption I would say would be at least 3-4 times more for a closed loop providing less flow than tunze/vortec powerheads.

 

[Rhodes19]

Well just in case I have a Reeflo Dart for sale over here in Washington.... I prefer a CL system myself.

LOL Thanks 07FocusST, if I go that route I'll keep you in mind. From what I've been reading, the Reeflo Dart is a pretty decent pump. Do yo think you get better flow/circulation with the CL?

 

[Rhodes19]

I ran a CL spray bar for a while and then removed it to replace with 2 Tunze 6025's. Uses way less elcetricity and I get about 400GPH more flow in a wider pattern. Much happpier with this.

Hi Chichas01, thanks. I like the less electricity part.

 

[Rhodes19]

It's a toss up. Closed loops can be a bit easier on the eyes depending on how it is done and then the use of lockline allows you to point your flow in any direction you want. Powerheads like tunzes will give a wider pattern as opposed to a closed loop which gives more of a directional type flow. I've had both setups and to be honest, it's all about placement. Both can provide what you are looking for. I did love my 38 gal best though which was a closed loop setup!

Hi krish, thanks for your feed back. I guess what I'm looking for is something to get the detritus suspended for filtration (less nitrates and phos) and provide the flow needed for future sps. I have flow that blows the food around but the detritus just sits there.

 

[Rhodes19]

Funny how the two threads differ from site to site Chris

These people here are what I call tough reefers. Not to many shy reefers on this site and most would prefer to drill holes in there tanks. On the other site most rather spend more and do less work.

Like Krish said, it's a toss up on this topic. It really comes down to what your looking for and how far are you willing to go to get the results your looking for.

Thanks Frank. Yeah, I'm getting that feeling. I might just have to take you up on your offer to borrow your pump, get some pvc, and make a CL and see what it does. If it works better than the power heads, I'll keep it up, give you your pump back and get my own pump. Besides, I like to think I'm a "tough reefer".

 

[Frankie]

Your more like swede Chris. Tough yet pliable still Best type of reefer imo.

The pump is just sitting here waiting on you. It's an ampmaster 3000. After using it for years I have never had any buildup issues with the pump or plumbing btw. When I tore my system down last time all the plumbing was very clean and the pump like brand new on the inside.

I think investing in some PVC and a free pressure rated pump will be worth the risk to see how it works over spending a fortune on high end powerheads. If it doesn't fly you can always go the other way.

This is going to be an over the wall CL btw everyone so no drilling glass with this one. Yet.

 

[Rhodes19]

I personally HATE closed loops...
first off, they are expensive when you do them right(with xl external pumps,unions and gate valves)
they increase the points of failure exponentially,
small nozzel outlets provide flow that is not appropriate comparatively to gentler wide pattern outlets of pro powerheads(tunze,vortec),
and I hate looking at locline in the system... it's unsightly and IMO it's much easier to hide tunze or vortec poerheads behind rockwerk in a gyre configuration.
also, closed loops get totally clogged with calcium and must be taken apart and cleaned annually, as well as replaced every 5 years or so.
and the power consumption I would say would be at least 3-4 times more for a closed loop providing less flow than tunze/vortec powerheads.

Hi Skimmy,

Thanks for your feed back. Yeah, definitely expensive, shoot, just about everything in this hobby is. LOL I guess I wouldn't mind the expense (same goes for the vortex) if they do what I would like them to do. I've never had a cl before and I'm not happy with the flow/type/pattern of the flow I currently have. I could add some more power heads but I'm afraid I'll have to add 3-4 more power heads. Still cheaper than the vortex's but only having 2 power heads would look better.

 

[Rhodes19]

Your more like swede Chris. Tough yet pliable still Best type of reefer imo.

The pump is just sitting here waiting on you. It's an ampmaster 3000. After using it for years I have never had any buildup issues with the pump or plumbing btw. When I tore my system down last time all the plumbing was very clean and the pump like brand new on the inside.

I think investing in some PVC and a free pressure rated pump will be worth the risk to see how it works over spending a fortune on high end powerheads. If it doesn't fly you can always go the other way.

This is going to be an over the wall CL btw everyone so no drilling glass with this one. Yet.

Thanks Frank.

 

[mojoreef]

Yea their are pros and cons for each system for sure. As Skimmy pointed out you will have more points of possible failure, but as for cost, calcium build up and so on I cant really agree to much on that.

The ampmaster 300 is a real durable pump, mine are over 10 years old and the most you might ever have to do is rebuild kit which is cheap, that and it only uses 1 amp I believe.

Over the top is a bit of a pain as priming can be a bear. But in saying that it can be done.

You should think it out and try to be as creative as you can when putting in a closed loop. Alot of folks just run pvc and the view of the pipes is not always attractive. Using lock line can be good as you can run the lock line into the rock work and thus make it invisable to a point. Another way I have done neat Cl's in the past is using acrylic itself. I have built simple acrylic towers (with holes drilled in) and then done my rock work around it, or acrylic tubes along the back or bottom. With the tubes made of acrylic you can also tap them for threading in lock line or similar, also with the acrylic you can make as many holes (or as few) as you like and them customize their locations.

anyway some thoughts

Mike

 

[Skimmy]

ok... one closed loop i did love was in a display tank at the shop Waves in portland...
it was like a 180-240g with a massive sequence pump and a mbv, but instead of a manifold with nozzels all over the place,
Shaun decided to design the system with a 2" bulkhead on each side of the tank and the flow would swich directions every few minutes, brilliant!!
granted i prolly wouldnt want to look at 2" plumbing attached to the sides of a home system.

and yeah, i guess vortec and tunze pumps arent cheap...
and to really have a good gyre in a big system with only 1 or 2 powerheads, they have to be the expensive high flow ones over 3000gph each.
the calcium comment was an observation on SPS systems with calcium reactors doing contant drips to maintain alot of growth from large colonies... the build up would eventually flake off and collect at the gate valves in the closed loop, and you would have to dis-assemble to remove. this was after about 2 years , but i determined to keep it on the safe side maintenance should be done annually. this might not be the case with some CL's on mixed reefs or softie/lps reefs requiring smaller calcium additions to maintain appropriate levels.

 

[Rhodes19]

Yea their are pros and cons for each system for sure. As Skimmy pointed out you will have more points of possible failure, but as for cost, calcium build up and so on I cant really agree to much on that.

The ampmaster 300 is a real durable pump, mine are over 10 years old and the most you might ever have to do is rebuild kit which is cheap, that and it only uses 1 amp I believe.

Over the top is a bit of a pain as priming can be a bear. But in saying that it can be done.

You should think it out and try to be as creative as you can when putting in a closed loop. Alot of folks just run pvc and the view of the pipes is not always attractive. Using lock line can be good as you can run the lock line into the rock work and thus make it invisable to a point. Another way I have done neat Cl's in the past is using acrylic itself. I have built simple acrylic towers (with holes drilled in) and then done my rock work around it, or acrylic tubes along the back or bottom. With the tubes made of acrylic you can also tap them for threading in lock line or similar, also with the acrylic you can make as many holes (or as few) as you like and them customize their locations.

anyway some thoughts

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your input. I hadn't considered doing something like towers and then have locline coming form them. That could be a fun project to do. The tubes along the bottom would be hidden for sure with my rockscape. When I started my build a year and a half ago, I had no idea what a CL was, but now that the tank is up and running, I don't want to take it down just to drill it. Maybe on my next build (just don't tell my wife). Thanks.

 

[Rhodes19]

ok... one closed loop i did love was in a display tank at the shop Waves in portland...
it was like a 180-240g with a massive sequence pump and a mbv, but instead of a manifold with nozzels all over the place,
Shaun decided to design the system with a 2" bulkhead on each side of the tank and the flow would swich directions every few minutes, brilliant!!
granted i prolly wouldnt want to look at 2" plumbing attached to the sides of a home system.

and yeah, i guess vortec and tunze pumps arent cheap...
and to really have a good gyre in a big system with only 1 or 2 powerheads, they have to be the expensive high flow ones over 3000gph each.
the calcium comment was an observation on SPS systems with calcium reactors doing contant drips to maintain alot of growth from large colonies... the build up would eventually flake off and collect at the gate valves in the closed loop, and you would have to dis-assemble to remove. this was after about 2 years , but i determined to keep it on the safe side maintenance should be done annually. this might not be the case with some CL's on mixed reefs or softie/lps reefs requiring smaller calcium additions to maintain appropriate levels.

Thanks again Skimmy,

That sounds like it was an interesting set up. I like the idea of switching back and forth. That must of been on heck of a current. If I had an in wall tank, I would seriously consider doing something like that. I'll have to play with a simple cl and probably supplement it with some bigger power heads. Either way, I'll be getting some more flow.

 

[mojoreef]

The tubes along the bottom would be hidden for sure with my rockscape. When I started my build a year and a half ago, I had no idea what a CL was, but now that the tank is up and running, I don't want to take it down just to drill it. Maybe on my next build (just don't tell my wife).

Yea you can put something like that anywhere, the idea is that it is black and looks like ugly then the pvc piping. That and you can make it in any shape you want along with any kind of holes/slots you want in it.

Skimmy I have two Motorized BV on my closed loops and they really work well. they allow you to have have the pump size and just 1 instead of 2. I run alot of cal and alk and really all I have only done is open and close the valves from time to time to break any build up that may be going on. The worse case is that you just create a way to remove them when you want to clean them.


Mojo

 

[Krish]

Hi krish, thanks for your feed back. I guess what I'm looking for is something to get the detritus suspended for filtration (less nitrates and phos) and provide the flow needed for future sps. I have flow that blows the food around but the detritus just sits there.

No problem Chris. I always run bare bottom systems so I can maximize and not limit my flow options. Sands storms are the biggest set backs when you get into the higher flow ranges as well as placement. It is much easier IMO to bounce flow off of the bottom of a tank that has no sand than one that does and absorbs some of it. That too is a toss up with pros and cons but for me, the pros out weigh the cons any day and will always go bare bottom and maximize my flow. I can see in real time where the detritus is settling and address it whereas with sand you will never really know. I cam post you a few pics when I get back on my pc. One with powerheads and with with closed loop a no detritus settled anywhere in either.

Just an extra 2 cents worth. Almost up to a nickel and you can buy your self a mint


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[Krish]

Here you go Chis just as examples. Also, this will give you an idea as to what I was talking about with the flow from a closed loop using lockline vs a tunze.

First picture is my old 75gal. About 700 gph running through a sea swirl up top for surface aggitation and two tunze streams. One rated at 1600 gph and one rated at 1850 gph (on a controller that alternated the speed every few seconds from about 50% to 100%). This tank was bare bottom with a white pvc board bottom and the only spot detritus ever settled in this tank was where you see the red arrow. When I did my water change, I only had to vaccum there. I tried numerous angles with the flow and there were always a few problem spots, but this one gave me the best results without adding in another powerhead. One tunze on either end of the tank pointed to the front of the glass at the center where both pump's flow collided. I did add an over the top closed loop to help with that small detritus problem using a mag950, but eventually removed it. The Tunze has a wide flow patter. You can't see it in the picture but you can see by the shape of the head how big the diameter is.





Now here's my 38 gal with a 950 gph return for surface aggitation and two 1502 gph pumps to run two seperate closed loops. I had a total of 4 outputs and each output had a Y on it so I basically had 8 nozzles to direct flow. At a bit over 100X turnover rate and with the placement I used, detritus didn't settle anywhere so a water change only consisted of just swapping out water. This tank was bare bottom as well as there would be no way to keep sand in a tank with this much flow. In reference to the flow from a lockline, you can see by the picture of the top two outputs, the water coming out is a narrow direct stream of water and not that wide. The flared nozzle I used (one each side) is a bit wider but nothing comapred to what a Tunze would give you. You'd have to go with wider flares or a different type of head for your outputs. What you see up top in this picture, I had the exact same thing down low as well. It was like a tsunami in there :lol:. The fish and corals loved it though.






Another example just to get your mind going a bit and a visual.


24 gal aquapod bare bottom with 3 maxijets. This is just for visual purposes. One for return and two in the tank. This layout did the job and had no detritus settle anywhere, but I didn;t like the look.






As a result of not liking the look of the powerheads sitting in the tank, I ripped out the original backwall, put in my own false wall and used lockline as outputs with the 3 pumps hidden in the back compartment. This setup worked the same way and didn't allow detritus to settle in the tank. Two different looks, both gave me the same results. I think not using sand in my case was a major factor in this being possible. Also, besides a sandstorm, your detritus can get lost in your sand bed and you'd never know so it is always a good idea if running a sandbed to siphon off the top layer to remove any that may be in there.