Better flow: Closed loop or power heads?

[07FocusST]

Krish, you still make me jealous with all your fancy tanks and setups!!!!

 

[Frankie]

Krish is the man! Love some of your builds buddy

I like Mojo's idea a lot actually. Chris, we need to get into my garage one night this month and get to building something. Mike told me there are some drawings of his idea somewhere on the forum. I'll hunt them down over the weekend and see what's up. May be the answer to your dilemma.

On a side note, I much prefer seeing lock line out in the open then Koralia's. There like zeppelins attached to the inside of the glass some of those power heads!! LOL

 

[Krish]

Haha! Thanks guys!

 

[mojoreef]

I found one of the threads, heres a link.

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f13/plumbing-ideas-room-divider-6896/

 

[Frankie]

Very interesting Mike. I'll get Chris to come over and do some midnight diying in the shop with me.

 

[mojoreef]

Yea Frank that one was a bit complicated as the person had a room divider tank and didnt want any plumbing showing at all. All the inputs and out puts had to run inside those. But it gives you an idea that almost anything is possible and you dont have to use pvc to house water flow.

have fun

Mike

 

[Aquanaut]

Aquanauts solution and compromise

:juggle:I feel that to keep particals suspended for the length of time it takes the tanks circulation to wisk it away to the overflows, only a properly timed sequence of alternating flows will agitate enough to accomplish this. REGARDLESS of CL or slow/fast flows to the turn over rate of a system. I have had all manner of flows in my system with the exception of a true closed loop. I have so far found a compromise of three methods that are not obtrusive to the eye.

Firstly, is High push rate of return to the tank (my opinion) for example on my 250DD I'm using a Gold Super Dart rated 4300gph. But propably closer to 3000gph at the return. Secondly this is emmited by a 1" branching of a 2 entering pipes. One is tee'd and ball valved for fine tunning back pressure near the surface and has a 45 degree rotating end aimed toward the center of the tank. The main pipe enters from far end and extends elevated on legs and branches to 5 tee'd 1" heads w/caged ends that disperses the flow exponentialy--my replacement for a CL system (better than conjested narrow lockline). The 90% of the pipe is hidden by coral and rock in addition to supporting and elevating everything 5" off the bottom. (Side note: perimeter corals and rock are on mobile acrylic rod support stands and transition the hight of the reef to obscure the fact it is open cavity underneath, which the fishes just love to play around.) Thirdly, and just as important for distribution of circulation 3 Koralla 4's (till I can afford Vortech) --cords are hidden by rockwork and extend from teeth in overflow box with little notice. These are powerd by a 20sec-3min timed wavemaker strip and really keeps the particulate suspension off the bottom. Especially since the currents churn around the cavities for really great flow alike an environment found on perimeter ocean tidal reefs and eddy's. My coral pollups really extend to take advantage of the particulate food that is more available now. I might also add that my high sump rate also is returning extra food sources from the internal 23g refugium/slow flow settling chamber fed from ball valve on incomming nutrient rich water from DT.

Over time the PVC will encrust and blend in naturally and the hydnopora will attach and further obscure the main vertical pipe's entry.

 

[Skimmy]

gorgeous tank!!
now hit that white pvc with some black krylon paint!!!!!

 

[Krish]

gorgeous tank!!
now hit that white pvc with some black krylon paint!!!!!

Ahh...That will be purple in no time

 

[Rhodes19]

No problem Chris. I always run bare bottom systems so I can maximize and not limit my flow options. Sands storms are the biggest set backs when you get into the higher flow ranges as well as placement. It is much easier IMO to bounce flow off of the bottom of a tank that has no sand than one that does and absorbs some of it. That too is a toss up with pros and cons but for me, the pros out weigh the cons any day and will always go bare bottom and maximize my flow. I can see in real time where the detritus is settling and address it whereas with sand you will never really know. I cam post you a few pics when I get back on my pc. One with powerheads and with with closed loop a no detritus settled anywhere in either.

Just an extra 2 cents worth. Almost up to a nickel and you can buy your self a mint


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LOL, Thanks Krish. Every penny counts. Didn't think of sand storms. I can definitely see the detritus building up in my 125 FOWLR. It has a BB and you can see it all. I need to get more flow in there to. I'll have to point the power heads down to the bottom and get it stirred up so I can be filtered out. Thanks.

 

[Rhodes19]

Here you go Chis just as examples. Also, this will give you an idea as to what I was talking about with the flow from a closed loop using lockline vs a tunze.

First picture is my old 75gal. About 700 gph running through a sea swirl up top for surface aggitation and two tunze streams. One rated at 1600 gph and one rated at 1850 gph (on a controller that alternated the speed every few seconds from about 50% to 100%). This tank was bare bottom with a white pvc board bottom and the only spot detritus ever settled in this tank was where you see the red arrow. When I did my water change, I only had to vaccum there. I tried numerous angles with the flow and there were always a few problem spots, but this one gave me the best results without adding in another powerhead. One tunze on either end of the tank pointed to the front of the glass at the center where both pump's flow collided. I did add an over the top closed loop to help with that small detritus problem using a mag950, but eventually removed it. The Tunze has a wide flow patter. You can't see it in the picture but you can see by the shape of the head how big the diameter is.





Now here's my 38 gal with a 950 gph return for surface aggitation and two 1502 gph pumps to run two seperate closed loops. I had a total of 4 outputs and each output had a Y on it so I basically had 8 nozzles to direct flow. At a bit over 100X turnover rate and with the placement I used, detritus didn't settle anywhere so a water change only consisted of just swapping out water. This tank was bare bottom as well as there would be no way to keep sand in a tank with this much flow. In reference to the flow from a lockline, you can see by the picture of the top two outputs, the water coming out is a narrow direct stream of water and not that wide. The flared nozzle I used (one each side) is a bit wider but nothing comapred to what a Tunze would give you. You'd have to go with wider flares or a different type of head for your outputs. What you see up top in this picture, I had the exact same thing down low as well. It was like a tsunami in there :lol:. The fish and corals loved it though.






Another example just to get your mind going a bit and a visual.


24 gal aquapod bare bottom with 3 maxijets. This is just for visual purposes. One for return and two in the tank. This layout did the job and had no detritus settle anywhere, but I didn;t like the look.






As a result of not liking the look of the powerheads sitting in the tank, I ripped out the original backwall, put in my own false wall and used lockline as outputs with the 3 pumps hidden in the back compartment. This setup worked the same way and didn't allow detritus to settle in the tank. Two different looks, both gave me the same results. I think not using sand in my case was a major factor in this being possible. Also, besides a sandstorm, your detritus can get lost in your sand bed and you'd never know so it is always a good idea if running a sandbed to siphon off the top layer to remove any that may be in there.

Kirsh, I am totally at a loss for words. Your tanks are absolutely amazing. You have some awesome skills there. Thanks again for the info and for the pictures. You have me thinking about changing a few things in all my tanks. I've been looking for an excuse to redo my Biocube 14 and I think you just gave me one. Where did you find the pvc sheet? I'd like to give that a try in my BC 14 and in the 125.

 

[Krish]

Kirsh, I am totally at a loss for words. Your tanks are absolutely amazing. You have some awesome skills there. Thanks again for the info and for the pictures. You have me thinking about changing a few things in all my tanks. I've been looking for an excuse to redo my Biocube 14 and I think you just gave me one. Where did you find the pvc sheet? I'd like to give that a try in my BC 14 and in the 125.

Haha! No problem at all man. I love messing with stuff! I'll have to show you some pics when I get home of how I did an over the top closed loop on that 75gal and hid everything. Was pretty neat!! As for the PVC board, Jason at CFI (a sponsor here) said he sells it. It is almost like starboard. I'll find the thread to it as soon as I get to a pc and then I'll post those pics when I get home.


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[Rhodes19]

I found one of the threads, heres a link.

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f13/plumbing-ideas-room-divider-6896/

Nice, thanks mojo. The only question I have is, how are the boxes attached to the tank? Will I have to drain the tank in order to glue them in?

 

[Krish]

Here's the link on the PVC board. I just silicone it down. Holds up really well and gives the illusion of sand without a sandstorm

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f14/info-pvc-board-59909/

 

[Rhodes19]

:juggle:I feel that to keep particals suspended for the length of time it takes the tanks circulation to wisk it away to the overflows, only a properly timed sequence of alternating flows will agitate enough to accomplish this. REGARDLESS of CL or slow/fast flows to the turn over rate of a system. I have had all manner of flows in my system with the exception of a true closed loop. I have so far found a compromise of three methods that are not obtrusive to the eye.

Firstly, is High push rate of return to the tank (my opinion) for example on my 250DD I'm using a Gold Super Dart rated 4300gph. But propably closer to 3000gph at the return. Secondly this is emmited by a 1" branching of a 2 entering pipes. One is tee'd and ball valved for fine tunning back pressure near the surface and has a 45 degree rotating end aimed toward the center of the tank. The main pipe enters from far end and extends elevated on legs and branches to 5 tee'd 1" heads w/caged ends that disperses the flow exponentialy--my replacement for a CL system (better than conjested narrow lockline). The 90% of the pipe is hidden by coral and rock in addition to supporting and elevating everything 5" off the bottom. (Side note: perimeter corals and rock are on mobile acrylic rod support stands and transition the hight of the reef to obscure the fact it is open cavity underneath, which the fishes just love to play around.) Thirdly, and just as important for distribution of circulation 3 Koralla 4's (till I can afford Vortech) --cords are hidden by rockwork and extend from teeth in overflow box with little notice. These are powerd by a 20sec-3min timed wavemaker strip and really keeps the particulate suspension off the bottom. Especially since the currents churn around the cavities for really great flow alike an environment found on perimeter ocean tidal reefs and eddy's. My coral pollups really extend to take advantage of the particulate food that is more available now. I might also add that my high sump rate also is returning extra food sources from the internal 23g refugium/slow flow settling chamber fed from ball valve on incomming nutrient rich water from DT.

Over time the PVC will encrust and blend in naturally and the hydnopora will attach and further obscure the main vertical pipe's entry.

Hi Aquanaut,

Thanks for your feed back and for the pictures. You have a beautiful set up and corals. Did you have any problems with blowing your sand around?

 

[Rhodes19]

Haha! No problem at all man. I love messing with stuff! I'll have to show you some pics when I get home of how I did an over the top closed loop on that 75gal and hid everything. Was pretty neat!! As for the PVC board, Jason at CFI (a sponsor here) said he sells it. It is almost like starboard. I'll find the thread to it as soon as I get to a pc and then I'll post those pics when I get home.


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Cool beans, thanks man, I'd love to see more of your pictures.

 

[Rhodes19]

Here's the link on the PVC board. I just silicone it down. Holds up really well and gives the illusion of sand without a sandstorm

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f14/info-pvc-board-59909/

Thanks. I was surprized to see it. It does give a nice illusion of sand. I'm going to have to play with that.

 

[Krish]

Thanks. I was surprized to see it... I'm going to have to play with that.

That's what she said ...I mean! Yea good idea!


I'll get you those other pics tonight to jog your brain a bit more.

 

[mojoreef]

Nice, thanks mojo. The only question I have is, how are the boxes attached to the tank? Will I have to drain the tank in order to glue them in?

I just put those up to give you some ideas on what could/can be done with things other then pvc and so on. On this setup yea you would have to drain and drill, but again this is just what this feelow wanted to do when he set up his tank from scratch. Shoot me a link to your setup and I can take a peek.

Mike

 

[Krish]

Chris check out Mojo's thread "Building of the Beast". Talk about flow!!! That tank had more outputs than anything I have ever seen!! Amazing build! Too bad he busted a seal on it.


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