canister filter

[DonW]

The test is silly.:lol: All you need to do is determine wether or not you have an enviroment suitable for anaerobic bacteria.

Use science, your test method is overly flawed to the point that if it was a success to any degree what so ever you couldnt even measure the success.

If you insist on actually debunking the science behind denitrification and claim that a canister filter will permorm such a task with any efficiency then at least do it correctly. This would benefit both sides of the argument.

Don

 

[returnofsid]

Even regular water changes will completely invalidate this "experiment." How will you know if your canister filter is denitrifying or if you're removing nitrates, through water changes?

This is a prime example of why you'd need to set up several "control" tanks, in order to get anything close to "accurate results."

 

[DonW]

Even regular water changes will completely invalidate this "experiment." How will you know if your canister filter is denitrifying or if you're removing nitrates, through water changes?

This is a prime example of why you'd need to set up several "control" tanks, in order to get anything close to "accurate results."

The experiment as it stand is worthless. But on the otherhand for the sake of arguments my bet is that if we walk through the experiment with the information we know as FACT we will find that suitability makes it a needless undertaking.

First we need a task! So what is it?? Is it to completly filter a tank with a 1:10 fish load with 32 fluid oz of LR rubble?? If not come up with a task and lets take a look at feasability.

Don

 

[TheKraken]

Thus the reason our freshwater tanks have nitrates off the chart using these canister filters as well! All they are designed to do is rid the tank of ammonia and nitrite as fish can tolerate nitrates at very high levels and now that I think of it, I don't think I've never heard the term "denitrification" used in the same sentence as a freshwater tank LOL.

In the planted world we have to add nitrates, CO2, and micronutrients to promote growth. At the apex the plants grow so fast that they saturate the local water and "pearl" like champagne. Everyone assumes this is excess oxygen but that is still up for debate.

On a freshwater tank I want to trap debris to make the water look clean. On a reef tank I want to get the filth out as soon as possible in the simplest way (filter socks are easier to swap than canister rebuilds so it gets done more often). A skimmer is a wonderful device.

 

[ac7av]

I was planning on going skimmerless and I think it will be a 20, 24, or 29 gallon. I’m not sure yet on that’s but one of these sizes. As I said before I do not plan on opening the filter for anything. Ill just have to start over again if I do. I really respect everyone’s point of view on this but we all live in the actual real world not a sterile environment. This is a real world test not one in a lab. Even lab test can be inaccurate and misleading. Controlled testing is also not real world testing all the time. Plenty of drug manufactures out there get there brain child drugs pulled off shelves and or labels changed with stronger warnings because things just don’t always translate into the real world applications the way even experts anticipate. Doing this test in a sterile environment with sterile everything and sealed everything so a piece of dust doesn’t touch the water proves nothing. I don’t want to waste my time on something like that. Not doing water changes like every other aquarium in the real world is pointless. That would be like saying why do water changes in your own tank? How do you know your system is doing its job if you keep changing the water? Maybe the water changes your doing are keeping the levels to undetectable amounts and your other equipment is doing nothing for you at all. Again not a real world test. Everyone operates there tanks differently but I think if I just do normal minimal tank maintenance like water changes on a regular schedule and clean the glass once in a while like any other tank, that this does not invalidate anything. I believe it will prove the point of the test.

Success is success, if it works then it works. If it doesn’t work then it doesn’t work. Now I have to prove to what degree it works or doesn’t work? That’s silly. Even if it works just barely then it works. I think that, from what I understand, anaerobic areas do exist in a properly set up canister filter and I’m going to try and prove my theory. Maybe it will not work the first time or the second time but all I need to do is find a way it does work, not eliminate every way it will not work.

How would you propose I do this in a real world environment and circumstances that would translate directly to using a canister on an actual tank someone mite have on there kitchen counter without actually doing just that?

 

[TheKraken]

Success is success, if it works then it works. If it doesn’t work then it doesn’t work. Now I have to prove to what degree it works or doesn’t work? That’s silly. Even if it works just barely then it works. I think that, from what I understand, anaerobic areas do exist in a properly set up canister filter and I’m going to try and prove my theory. Maybe it will not work the first time or the second time but all I need to do is find a way it does work, not eliminate every way it will not work.

In this hobby it seems like recommendations are "something something,... for a SPS tank".

So you get "a skimmer is essential (...for a SPS tank)" and "a wetdry/canister is a nitrate factory (...for a SPS tank)".

For a well planned tank you can break a surprising number of rules. There used to be an amazing 10gal tank with an eclipse hood and PC bulb retro near UW that was GREAT. No skimmer, no tricks just one clownfish and lots of live rock. If you stick to lagoon dwellers that like a little nitride you can go even further. You just have to compromise on stocking levels, feedings, or coral selection.

It is not that a canister has no place in salt water, but rather cash and technology are really essential to achieving the knockout no compromise tanks of today. Once undergravel filters were king and I am sure we will look back and laugh at some of the things we do today.

Where did I put my flame proof suit again???

 

[Emerald525]

I was planning on going skimmerless and I think it will be a 20, 24, or 29 gallon. I’m not sure yet on that’s but one of these sizes. As I said before I do not plan on opening the filter for anything. Ill just have to start over again if I do. I really respect everyone’s point of view on this but we all live in the actual real world not a sterile environment. This is a real world test not one in a lab. Even lab test can be inaccurate and misleading. Controlled testing is also not real world testing all the time. Plenty of drug manufactures out there get there brain child drugs pulled off shelves and or labels changed with stronger warnings because things just don’t always translate into the real world applications the way even experts anticipate.

Actually it's not so much that medications don't translate into the real world. Many times it is just more information is discovered and unforeseen side effects with a larger sample size. That's one of the limitations with any type of research. It's not always accurate when you extrapolate from a small size and apply it to a much large population. Having said that.. I'm thinking I will stick with my sump and refugium!

 

[DonW]

How would you propose I do this in a real world environment and circumstances that would translate directly to using a canister on an actual tank someone mite have on there kitchen counter without actually doing just that?

There is no real world use for an empty tank with one fish except for maybe a goldfish bowl.

Or you could just throw two fist sized piece of LR in the bottom of a tank and do the same. Actually would do better pound for pound since there wouldnt be near the gas exchange. If two little rocks wont handle the bioload of a typical tank, then there would be no chance of it happening in a canister filter.

Don

 

[ac7av]

I know that.
I don’t want any interference from the live rock or the sand that have the potential to do the same thing. The canister filter has to be the only thing in the tank for filtering. Yes there is a real world use for this. How many people do you see on here each year that have converted fresh water tanks or want to convert to salt using what they already have? A tank with standard bulbs, painted gravel, hang on back filter or canister, heater and air pump and a bucket of salt, and there already to go salt. Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to say if you do this or that it can work, not just say throw it all away and re used the tank.

 

[ac7av]

Actually it's not so much that medications don't translate into the real world. Many times it is just more information is discovered and unforeseen side effects with a larger sample size. That's one of the limitations with any type of research. It's not always accurate when you extrapolate from a small size and apply it to a much large population. Having said that.. I'm thinking I will stick with my sump and refugium!

Exactly! Small sample, short study, ether can give a false sense of what up. No one is trying to convert anyone to use a canister. I’m only trying to see if one set up in a cretin manner will work with the average size starter tank that any new to salt mite have.

 

[ac7av]

Once undergravel filters were king and I am sure we will look back and laugh at some of the things we do today.

Where did I put my flame proof suit again???

And the amazing thing is they worked but yet again another one of those things that just got forgot about.

 

[DonW]

I know that.
I don’t want any interference from the live rock or the sand that have the potential to do the same thing. The canister filter has to be the only thing in the tank for filtering. Yes there is a real world use for this. How many people do you see on here each year that have converted fresh water tanks or want to convert to salt using what they already have? A tank with standard bulbs, painted gravel, hang on back filter or canister, heater and air pump and a bucket of salt, and there already to go salt. Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to say if you do this or that it can work, not just say throw it all away and re used the tank.

You missed the point. Do you really believe you can completly denitrify with a handfull of LR. There is no possible way you could in the tank let alone in a canister with good gas exchange its just not going to happen.
The words for that conversion is "Fish Only". For fish only all you need is a canister filter with bio media. The media doesnt denitrify but the fish dont care.
Can you set up a reef with a canister? You bet your butt you can. You just have to find a way to deal with nitrates. Ive got a buddy with a beautiful reef. He runs the modular pent air system with no sump, but he has a denitrator to take care of the nitrate, and to give a helping hand to the tank full of LR.

Don

 

[returnofsid]

Regular water changes will remove nitrates. How will you know if your canister filter is denitrifying, if you're removing nitrates, through water changes?

 

[Skimmy]

we know FOR A FACT there are better ways of filtering marine aquarium systems and dont use canister filters for a very good reason,
they are inferior. PERIOD!!! why go back??? for what???

no home "test" is going to prove or disprove anything...the results will be anecdotal and wont benifit anybody.

there is a MASSIVE difference between surviving and thriving,
and i think we have a responsability to promote and maintain the best quality of water/environment
and filtration we possibly can for the benifit of the creatures we assume responsability for.:idea:

 

[Krish]

I just posted this on the poll thread last night and figured it would be nice to post here as well, but apart from a canister filter being great to run carbon in, my main use for the H.O.T Magnum canister filter I had a while back was using the polihing cartridge. Before I had crazy flow, if I blasted my rocks, I would hook up the canister filter with the polishing cartridge and use it to collect all the free floatin debris. Also, I use to use it to vaccum out my sump. In the attachment below it will show you a new cartridge next to one that was used once to vaccum the sump. So for me, running carbon and polishing the water would be my only uses for a canister filter

 

[Krish]

I just posted this on the poll thread last night and figured it would be nice to post here as well, but apart from a canister filter being great to run carbon in, my main use for the H.O.T Magnum canister filter I had a while back was using the polishing cartridge. Before I had crazy flow, if I blasted my rocks, I would hook up the canister filter with the polishing cartridge and use it to collect all the free floating debris. Also, I use to use it to vaccum out my sump. In the attachment below it will show you a new cartridge next to one that was used once to vaccum the sump. So for me, running carbon and polishing the water would be my only uses for a canister filter

 

[ac7av]

Regular water changes will remove nitrates. How will you know if your canister filter is denitrifying, if you're removing nitrates, through water changes?

As has been pointed out if there is no ability to remove nitrates then the nitrates will increase whether or not you change any water. Unless you’re replacing 100% of the water you will only see a percentage drop after each water change.

 

[ac7av]

we know FOR A FACT there are better ways of filtering marine aquarium systems and dont use canister filters for a very good reason,
they are inferior. PERIOD!!! why go back??? for what???

no home "test" is going to prove or disprove anything...the results will be anecdotal and wont benifit anybody.

there is a MASSIVE difference between surviving and thriving,
and i think we have a responsability to promote and maintain the best quality of water/environment
and filtration we possibly can for the benifit of the creatures we assume responsability for.:idea:

I can not agree more. There are always better ways of doing thing and always something better to buy and it all takes money too. Without getting way off track, what about conserving resources and materials. Reduce, reuse, and repurpose. Why do you think a home test will prove or disprove nothing? How do you know if your skimmer is working if you can’t prove it at home? Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it? You for one I would expect have learned a great deal with personal experience with skimmers and just because someone says something probably never stopped you from trying it if you thought it would work or could work.

You think that we have a responsibility to promote the best quality environment then why are there so many opinions about that environment? Don’t you think that reducing waste has a part and repurposing items is saving and a responsible thing to do for the big environment? After all people often buy things to try and save. Lets say for a moment I can come up with a way to set up any canister filter to do just what I think it has the potential to do, wouldn’t that be a good thing? Let’s think inside the box for a minute. Think about all the things in this world that people said could not be done and were.

 

[ac7av]

I just posted this on the poll thread last night and figured it would be nice to post here as well, but apart from a canister filter being great to run carbon in, my main use for the H.O.T Magnum canister filter I had a while back was using the polishing cartridge. Before I had crazy flow, if I blasted my rocks, I would hook up the canister filter with the polishing cartridge and use it to collect all the free floating debris. Also, I use to use it to vaccum out my sump. In the attachment below it will show you a new cartridge next to one that was used once to vaccum the sump. So for me, running carbon and polishing the water would be my only uses for a canister filter

That’s a good Idea. Did you use that on the actual vacuum and recycle the water back into the tank as you were vacuuming? What a good way to save water.

 

[Krish]

That’s a good Idea. Did you use that on the actual vacuum and recycle the water back into the tank as you were vacuuming? What a good way to save water.

Yea, it had an attachment I connected a hose to and I would suck in dirty water and spit back out clean. The magnum 350 and H.O.T magnum canister filters both have the polishing cartridge.