canister filter

[ReefJeff]

This is by far the best and most controversial thread I have read since being a member.

Thank you all for your insight. I have been throwing this topic around myself on my 50 gallon reef. I have 85/95 lbs of live rock and I am using a skimmer and a AquaClear 70 HOB filter now and my reef is doing well. But, I was also contenplating using a Fluval 405 with just bio media running through it.

Now however, I want to wait and see what results from the testing being done by Erik.

I think this is the best website for reef and marine life I have been to, thank you all.

 

[DonW]

This is by far the best and most controversial thread I have read since being a member.

Thank you all for your insight. I have been throwing this topic around myself on my 50 gallon reef. I have 85/95 lbs of live rock and I am using a skimmer and a AquaClear 70 HOB filter now and my reef is doing well. But, I was also contenplating using a Fluval 405 with just bio media running through it.

Now however, I want to wait and see what results from the testing being done by Erik.

I think this is the best website for reef and marine life I have been to, thank you all.

Think about it for a moment. If your tank is doing well with what you have meaning no nitrates. Then your rock is doing its job. If you have nitrates then its failing somewhere. Adding a canister filter to tank with detectable nitrates is going to increase the nitrates. Why, because that is what a bio filter does it converts ammonia to nitrates.
Now if you have no detectable nitrates and you add a filter. That is a coin toss it will either create more nitrates than the rock can handle or the rock still has some extra ability to denitrify left.
This is where people get totally confused. They believe since they have a canister filter and no nitrates that the science is bunk or that their filter is magic and denitrifying. Its not magic its the LR taking on more.
There is only one way to denitrify and that is low or no 02.

The only way to show this with an experiment, and that is to use an empy tank with water, fish and a canister filter. But again this "experiment" has been done daily for decades and is still being done by everyone with a decorative tank without live rock.
Thus its no longer an experiment anymore its been proven time and time again.

Don

 

[Emerald525]

I would have to agree this is one of the most enlightening threads I have read in a while.

 

[Krish]

But again this "experiment" has been done daily for decades and is still being done by everyone with a decorative tank without live rock.
Thus its no longer an experiment anymore its been proven time and time again.

Don

Thus the reason our freshwater tanks have nitrates off the chart using these canister filters as well! All they are designed to do is rid the tank of ammonia and nitrite as fish can tolerate nitrates at very high levels and now that I think of it, I don't think I've never heard the term "denitrification" used in the same sentence as a freshwater tank LOL.

Great debate nonetheless. Glad people on this forum know how to be civil discussing something

 

[Emerald525]

Thus the reason our freshwater tanks have nitrates off the chart using these canister filters as well! All they are designed to do is rid the tank of ammonia and nitrite as fish can tolerate nitrates at very high levels and now that I think of it, I don't think I've never heard the term "denitrification" used in the same sentence as a freshwater tank LOL.

Great debate nonetheless. Glad people on this forum know how to be civil discussing something

I would agree now should we move on to something more controversial like acrylic versus glass or quarantine tanks?

 

[rainydave]

I would agree now should we move on to something more controversial like acrylic versus glass or quarantine tanks?

or T5 versus Halides

 

[Emerald525]

or T5 versus Halides

MH all the way rainydave! MH for sure!

 

[Krish]

Haha!! Start the threads! You should have been around a few years ago! We had some great discussion/debates going on!!

 

[ac7av]

Sid
I think you missed the point of the experiment, the experiment is to see if it will work the way I will set it up, not to compare it with something else. Comparing it to a denitrater is not what I’m saying at all or even trying to do. A denitrater only on a tank is just insufficient filtration and would never work. I’m not interested in doing a comparison test just a practical experiment. Does it work if used correctly? Nothing else. You’re trying to make it more complicated then it needs to be. If I was comparing skimmer to skimmer or denitrater to denitrater it would be nice to know a comparison test. I mean to use this as “the” filtration device. No skimmer, no sand, no plant or algae what so ever just water, a hand full of solid rock or pvc pipe and some fish. I’m still going to do normal 25% water changes and the other normal maintenance that most would do to there tank. I will keep track of all the information on my tank build thread and I will take the conclusion no matter what ever way it falls.

Don
I do get what you’re saying. I just don’t agree. A rock is a rock, sand is sand, the rock will trap debris no matter where it is, in the tank, in the sump, in the canister so I don’t see the point. Some how you insist that rock in the tank with 15,000 gallons per hour of water flowing around it some how is different then in a closed box with a built in pump. I am going to run the pump wide open, I’m not going to full around with that canister at all just what’s in it. As far as proving it for decades I say you’re right. It has been proven over and over again and I’m going to do it again to satisfy my own curiosity. After all many of us are running them now, we just call them other things because we pieced them together our selves.

Krish
I think the reason for the exploding nitrate results in many tanks fresh or salt is the way the filter is used. Like any tank you need time for it to cycle. If you keep messing with it all the time you will never get it under control. Same thing with a canister in my belief is if you keep cleaning every week or ever other week you wipe out what has already started and your back to ground zero again and the nitrate keep going up and up and up each time you try and clean the thing too often. Remember your tanks are a delicate balance of all kinds of things we can see and can not. If you were to keep taking out the rock and sand and putting it back in after cleaning it ever 2 weeks what do you think is going to happen? You will never get the tank balanced and the nitrates will keep going up. Sound like a nitrate factory having live rock and sand in a tank if you just think of it like that. What a waist of time it is to keep starting that cycle over and over, it gets you no ware.

Hey Reefjeff
Like anything in salt water it is going to take a long time to do this because there is not way to speed up the results. Time will tell the story and I think I’m correct in my thinking but maybe I’m not. I am going to try and find that out for my self and anyone else that wants actual real world results to prove a disprove the results of using a canister. I’m going to document every thing that would seem important to this experiment

 

[ac7av]

You know after looking at this I have to agree, best discussion I’ve had and enjoyed it too.

Hey Krish
Maybe you can start another poll and discussion about frequency of feeding a fish tank, reef tank. I’m curious to see how that goes with others tanks.

 

[returnofsid]

I just believe that the science will prove it all works the same not matter where or what it’s in.

Sid
I think you missed the point of the experiment, the experiment is to see if it will work the way I will set it up, not to compare it with something else. Comparing it to a denitrater is not what I’m saying at all or even trying to do. A denitrater only on a tank is just insufficient filtration and would never work. I’m not interested in doing a comparison test just a practical experiment. Does it work if used correctly? Nothing else. You’re trying to make it more complicated then it needs to be. If I was comparing skimmer to skimmer or denitrater to denitrater it would be nice to know a comparison test. I mean to use this as “the” filtration device. No skimmer, no sand, no plant or algae what so ever just water, a hand full of solid rock or pvc pipe and some fish. I’m still going to do normal 25% water changes and the other normal maintenance that most would do to there tank. I will keep track of all the information on my tank build thread and I will take the conclusion no matter what ever way it falls.

I didn't miss "the point." You say "science" will prove your point. If you want it to be a truly "scientific experiment," you'll need several tanks, as "controls," to eliminate any uncontrolled results or other influences. You need to be in total control of all the results. This means you'd need to be able to control the filtration of any live rock you add, as well.

I do understand what you're planning to do, but please keep in mind, it'll in no way, be a "scientific experiment." The science, if you study it, already proves that what you're wanting to prove, just isn't possible.

I assume your plan is to set up a bare bottom tank, with no live rock (to eliminate denitrification that the rock would do) with just a canister filter. I also assume that you won't be doing any maintenance, on the media, inside the canister filter, such as rinsing it, changing any media pads, etc. Otherwise, if you change media or rinse media, on a regular basis, you'll not be showing your point. Rinsing the media would rinse away nitrates, so wouldn't show that the canister filter is actually effecting nitrates.

 

[Krish]

Sid

Krish
I think the reason for the exploding nitrate results in many tanks fresh or salt is the way the filter is used. Like any tank you need time for it to cycle. If you keep messing with it all the time you will never get it under control. Same thing with a canister in my belief is if you keep cleaning every week or ever other week you wipe out what has already started and your back to ground zero again and the nitrate keep going up and up and up each time you try and clean the thing too often. Remember your tanks are a delicate balance of all kinds of things we can see and can not. If you were to keep taking out the rock and sand and putting it back in after cleaning it ever 2 weeks what do you think is going to happen? You will never get the tank balanced and the nitrates will keep going up. Sound like a nitrate factory having live rock and sand in a tank if you just think of it like that. What a waist of time it is to keep starting that cycle over and over, it gets you no ware.

Yea, you definately can't mess with things...I totally agree When I first got into the hobby years ago, I would do just that...Pull out my rocks and scrub them every week or so trying to scrub off the algae. I thought I was doing something good :lol: I see a few different arguments/points being made throughout this thread which is great! Speaking on my argument alone however is a pretty straight forward one which is if a person was to fill their canister filter with bio-balls, ceramic tubes, or live rock (which would have to be rubble as big pieces can't fit in your traditional canister filter) you would see no benefit of denitrification taking place. Same thing if you took that same canister filter's contents and dumped it all into your sump. No beneficial denitrification would take place to completely "bio-filtrate" a tank (hope that is an actual word ). What could fit in a canister filter is not much at all and it doesn't matter if it was in an open sump or closed up canister filter...Bio-balls and ceramic tubes definately won't provide you with any denitrification which is a given as there are no anaerobic zones in either of the two. As for live rock in the form of rubble, what little you can fit in a canister filter wouldn't do much for you either. You need rocks with enough mass/depth for there to be an area in it void of oxygen which rubble won't provide much of.

Just a few personal thoughts of mine once again which could be entirely off and I could be wrong. Nonetheless, as suggested, this whole idea of running canister filters has been put to the test along with wet/dry systems time and time again and the results are evident in the number of people using them to support thier systems. If you like I could even start a poll to see just how many people are using canister filter and for what purpose

 

[ac7av]

Don
Since I don’t have the space to run 3 tanks or more at the same time or the material to do so I will just have to do with 1 test at a time over say a 6 month period of time.

There are no set guidelines that pertain to this kind of study that would indicated that what I want to do is not a scientific study. After all a scientific study is nothing more then an investigation into something to learn something new. Depending on what your investigation “scientific study” is on, is the only thing that really dictates what you should do, need to do, or want to do. So I do believe it is a scientific study.

No live rock, no sand no macros no plants, only fish in the tank, no maintenance to the canister. Only regular water changes and cleaning of the glass and feeding of the fish and topping off of the water and maybe a changing of the light bulb if its required. Only things that would normally be done in any tank to keep it healthy.

I have not read any scientific studies on the subject specifically dealing with canister filters that looked to be more then peoples personal experiences with using them and no real documentation of time frames and test results and tank parameters. If you have come across some actually studies dealing with canister filters specifically, please share them, I would like to read threw them.

 

[Krish]

Here's the link to the canister filter poll I just started to see who acutally uses them and for what purposes.

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57531

 

[ac7av]

That will be interesting to see how the majority of them are being used.

 

[Krish]

That will be interesting to see how the majority of them are being used.

Definately! Hopefully I covered all options

 

[ac7av]

I think I figured it all out.:idea:
Since my wife started fall classes again I’m home everyday with three kids under 7 years old and I’m going crazy. I started talking to the fish and now there starting to talk back.

 

[Skimmy]

cannisters on reef tanks are lame. they have teh failz.

and, if im not mistaken, canister filters on reef tanks are sanctioned by Codex Alimentarius.:razz:

 

[Krish]

I think I figured it all out.:idea:
Since my wife started fall classes again I’m home everyday with three kids under 7 years old and I’m going crazy. I started talking to the fish and now there starting to talk back.

Haha!!! :lol: Time for you to check into the looney bin

BTW, what did you actually figure out

 

[Scooterman]

No live rock, no sand no macros no plants, only fish in the tank, no maintenance to the canister. Only regular water changes and cleaning of the glass and feeding of the fish and topping off of the water and maybe a changing of the light bulb if its required. Only things that would normally be done in any tank to keep it healthy.

Stick to these rules, don't even open the canister, let it go, lets see If you can make it 6 months, do it. How big is this tank going to be, skimmer?