spongebob lover
flea whisperer
yeap what Cy says
Carbon is confusing
- Thread starter Curtswearing
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yeap what Cy says
Boomer
Well-known member
I need to know how big in diameter it is. Is it less than 1 mm or greater than 1 mm ?
I have some serious issues ( allot of hype) with some of the claims Elos (maybe we should call them El-lost ) makes on their website with a number of their product claims, some which I consider nonsense, to include some on their GAC. I see they, like many in this hobby, do not understand the term "acid washed'
There are GAC's in pellet form, of which most are all are VPC and not LPC. They are claiming 1500 m^2 TSA, well / what. Well, I can assume they mean / gram so lets go with that. There is no such thing as any GAC other than wood GAC, which does not come in pellet form, that has around 1400m^2/ g TSA. Oh wait there are some Regenerated GAC. Yup as the name implies, used GAC recooked. Recooking increases the TSA, yet at the same time reduces its efficiency. Just because a GAC has a lot of TSA does not mean anything. We need to more about its "active sites of adsorption", i.e., Iodine #, Methylene Blue # etc.. Giving a high TSA makes about as much sense as saying you have a car with a 50 gal gas tank and we are to assume it gets great gas mileage, just because it has a large tank.
Here is something similar to what they have I think, as a VPC, only this is virgin GAC.
http://www.ecologixsystems.com/fm_ewi_pellets.shtml
I have some serious issues ( allot of hype) with some of the claims Elos (maybe we should call them El-lost ) makes on their website with a number of their product claims, some which I consider nonsense, to include some on their GAC. I see they, like many in this hobby, do not understand the term "acid washed'
There are GAC's in pellet form, of which most are all are VPC and not LPC. They are claiming 1500 m^2 TSA, well / what. Well, I can assume they mean / gram so lets go with that. There is no such thing as any GAC other than wood GAC, which does not come in pellet form, that has around 1400m^2/ g TSA. Oh wait there are some
Regenerated GAC. Yup as the name implies, used GAC recooked. Recooking increases the TSA, yet at the same time reduces its efficiency. Just because a GAC has a lot of TSA does not mean anything. We need to more about its "active sites of adsorption", i.e., Iodine #, Methylene Blue # etc.. Giving a high TSA makes about as much sense as saying you have a car with a 50 gal gas tank and we are to assume it gets great gas mileage, just because it has a large tank.Here is something similar to what they have I think, as a VPC, only this is virgin GAC.
http://www.ecologixsystems.com/fm_ewi_pellets.shtml
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loohunter
Fish lover
boomer you make my brain hurt
Curtswearing
Mantisfreak
It's not hard
VPC.....Vapor Phase Carbon
LPC......Liquid Phase Carbon
TSA.....Total Surface Area
Iodine Number.....Higher Iodine numbers means the GAC has a larger amount of microporous adsorption pores (However, if you go too high, the micropores are too small to be used in a reef tank).
Molasses Number....Higher Molasses numbers indicates how many of the adsorption pores are macroporous
High ash/low ash......High ash will add more phosphates to your tank
Acid Washed......removes ash content (so do a good rinse in tapwater)
Virgin GAC.....brand new, has never been regenerated
Lignite......typically more effective than sub-bitumous coal GAC. However, it's much softer and is more easily friable.
This picture shows the difference between the Mesopores, Macropores and Micropores. Marcopores are the largest, Mesopores are smaller (medium) and Micropores are even smaller. Their diameters are given on the diagram in nanometers as radius (r)
Here's the size numbers
This chart is old but it demonstrates quite well why if you're going to run carbon, might as well use LPC because it's designed to work in liquid. All of the vapor phase carbons were listed as less than 40% effective.
VPC.....Vapor Phase Carbon
LPC......Liquid Phase Carbon
TSA.....Total Surface Area
Iodine Number.....Higher Iodine numbers means the GAC has a larger amount of microporous adsorption pores (However, if you go too high, the micropores are too small to be used in a reef tank).
Molasses Number....Higher Molasses numbers indicates how many of the adsorption pores are macroporous
High ash/low ash......High ash will add more phosphates to your tank
Acid Washed......removes ash content (so do a good rinse in tapwater)
Virgin GAC.....brand new, has never been regenerated
Lignite......typically more effective than sub-bitumous coal GAC. However, it's much softer and is more easily friable.
This picture shows the difference between the Mesopores, Macropores and Micropores. Marcopores are the largest, Mesopores are smaller (medium) and Micropores are even smaller. Their diameters are given on the diagram in nanometers as radius (r)
Here's the size numbers
This chart is old but it demonstrates quite well why if you're going to run carbon, might as well use LPC because it's designed to work in liquid. All of the vapor phase carbons were listed as less than 40% effective.
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Boomer
Well-known member
Thanks Curt but I had to edit your post
Meso are where the pores enter from the surface, macropores are the smaller ones, and the micropores are the smallest.
Meso are where the pores enter from the surface, macropores are the smaller ones, and the micropores are the smallest.
spongebob lover
flea whisperer
it's about 1 mm no biger than that dood.
barrierreefcf
Sponsor
Yep...1mm.
Curtswearing
Mantisfreak
Thanks Curt but I had to edit your post
Meso are where the pores enter from the surface, macropores are the smaller ones, and the micropores are the smallest.
Thanks....and right you are (as usual).
loohunter
Fish lover
i went to barrier reef today and picked up a container of the warner marine carbon. however i was informed that it was not the stuff that has been talked about on this thread, but i have to say that it does not look like any thing i have used before. i am not an expert so i don't realy know what to look for but it looks to be way more porus than the last stuff i bought. i am anxious to see what the results will be
Damsel13
Well-known member
ok, does the sound the carbon makes when you rinse it have anything to do with how "active" it is? Does it have anything to do with how effective it is (in the sense you all have been discussing?).
Curtswearing
Mantisfreak
No. That's an old reefer's tale.
Scooterman
Well-known member
Man, a few years ago I would just get the black Diamond carbon, throw it in a sock & call it a day, now I can't believe how much information is in Boomer head This may of been asked but should it be rinsed before hand & if so should it be RO/DI or does that matter? One last Q, I once used a sock thrown in the sump main flow area, then went to a bottom fed reactor style & now I'm thinking of either sticking to that or going back to the small sock, I know this was repeated Q's but being we have so much info here thought it would add to the Coal
This may of been asked but should it be rinsed before hand & if so should it be RO/DI or does that matter? One last Q, I once used a sock thrown in the sump main flow area, then went to a bottom fed reactor style & now I'm thinking of either sticking to that or going back to the small sock, I know this was repeated Q's but being we have so much info here thought it would add to the Coal
NaH2O
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2004
- Messages
- 8,568
I'll add another lump of coal to the conversation. What about all the "phosphate leaching"? Would soaking in RO/DI help with this?
Activated Carbon and Phosphates
Activated Carbon and Phosphates
Boomer
Well-known member
Yes Nikki rinsing helps allot. Steve should have run this test both ways. You are ALWAYS suppose to rinse GAC, that is one reason and the other is to have as little impact on the pH as possible and remove any lose material inside the GAC and dust.
The other thing is you really do not need to test GAC in the manner Steve did for PO4. The concern is, is there or is there not PO4. All one needs to do is get a small glass and but in a small amount, like 1/4 teaspoon and fill with RO/DI water half way. Swirl the water for a minute and then just add some of the PO4 indicator and swirl some more. If there is any PO4 the water will turn blue quickly and the bluer it is the more there is. Then rinse a new sample and test it again.
I see TLF won th test as I would suspect That Kent stuff is VPC and is not very efficient in water. I would also not be judging GAC souly on PO4.
Now lets look at things in a more proper light. The highest is 1 mg / l with no rinse. You have 50 gals of net water and you dump in the whole l L in 50 gals. 50 gals x 3.78 = 189 L + 1 liter of PO4 water = 190 L. 1 mg / l in 190 L is 1/190 = .005 mg / l increase in PO4 in 50 gal. Come on now
Scotty
Yes, RO/DI would be best, but I do not see an issue with tap if you give it a final quick rinse in RO/DI.
loohunter
The Warner you are using is the same as TLF. The new Warner Ultra is not out yet and I thought it was. That is the one that is first on my list.
Deb
does the sound the carbon makes when you rinse it have anything to do with how "active" it is?
No as Curt has said. It is just releasing trapped air, another reason to rinse it.
The other thing is you really do not need to test GAC in the manner Steve did for PO4. The concern is, is there or is there not PO4. All one needs to do is get a small glass and but in a small amount, like 1/4 teaspoon and fill with RO/DI water half way. Swirl the water for a minute and then just add some of the PO4 indicator and swirl some more. If there is any PO4 the water will turn blue quickly and the bluer it is the more there is. Then rinse a new sample and test it again.
I see TLF won th test as I would suspect
That Kent stuff is VPC and is not very efficient in water. I would also not be judging GAC souly on PO4.Now lets look at things in a more proper light. The highest is 1 mg / l with no rinse. You have 50 gals of net water and you dump in the whole l L in 50 gals. 50 gals x 3.78 = 189 L + 1 liter of PO4 water = 190 L. 1 mg / l in 190 L is 1/190 = .005 mg / l increase in PO4 in 50 gal. Come on now
Scotty
Yes, RO/DI would be best, but I do not see an issue with tap if you give it a final quick rinse in RO/DI.
loohunter
The Warner you are using is the same as TLF. The new Warner Ultra is not out yet and I thought it was. That is the one that is first on my list.
Deb
does the sound the carbon makes when you rinse it have anything to do with how "active" it is?
No as Curt has said. It is just releasing trapped air, another reason to rinse it.
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Boomer
Well-known member
Well, if it is 1 mm or lets say .8 mm then it sounds like Norit "ROW" type. And it does not have no 1500 m^2 but 100 m^2. Maybe they bought some regenerated stuff, don't know. I know you guys are saying no bigger than 1 mm but are you sure it could not be 1.5 mm Got a micrometer handy
Got a micrometer handy
Scooterman
Well-known member
What is the best method of use, in a sock within the sump drain or in a canister?
Boomer
Well-known member
I like to use only Ehiem canister filters
barrierreefcf
Sponsor
Hey Boomer,
I really want the breakdown on Elos carbon. Who would I send a sample to for testing? If I sent one to you would you get it in the right hands?
Thanks
I really want the breakdown on Elos carbon. Who would I send a sample to for testing? If I sent one to you would you get it in the right hands?
Thanks
loohunter
Fish lover
loohunter
The Warner you are using is the same as TLF. The new Warner Ultra is not out yet and I thought it was. That is the one that is first on my list.
well number 2 on the list is fine with me and the price was very resonable
The Warner you are using is the same as TLF. The new Warner Ultra is not out yet and I thought it was. That is the one that is first on my list.
well number 2 on the list is fine with me and the price was very resonable
spongebob lover
flea whisperer
how come you like those canisters ? what's the difference ?
