Centropyge Argi

[Snowboarda42]

I got a Pygmy Cherub Angel (Centropyge Argi) a couple days ago:

He's in my QT for at least the next 6 weeks (as per Lee's QT method). He's already eating selcon enriched mysis, enriched brine, and F1 Pellet like a pig. He won't touch the sea veggie sheets. I also have a couple pieces of LR rubble which he grazes on. Right now the tank is totally medication-less, and the SG is 1.025 (normal). He swims all the time through PVC pipes, under and around them, and I think he's starting to recognize me as well.

The little guy looks flawless, with the exception of what looks like it could be a scar on one side of him. I assume it could have been from the net the LFS used or shipping. A friend picked him out and brought him here so I don't know what was used to catch him. The scar is only on one side, is verticle, and is a dark gray color. He's constantly moving so I cant get a picture of it, but I would guess it's .75mm across, and 1/2" tall. I haven't seen any flashing, and he looks like he doesn't even know its there. Feces is normal looking as well, nothing stringy.

Questions:

1. Healed Scar or Fresh Cut? (What does each look like)
2. Is there anything I can add to the tank to help heal it?
3. Do these fish eat carnivorous foods as juveniles, and switch to an omnivorous diet later on?
4. If I don't see any disease, infections, parasites, etc. within the month he's in QT, can I assume that he is safe to add to the DT? Or should I hypo him, add antibiotics, de-worm, etc anyways? (all at different times of course)

 

[leebca]

I'll take a crack at it. . .

1. A healing fresh cut is usually edged with white. The white part is the healing part. An open (bleeding) wound for a saltwater fish can often spell death since the fish cannot control the 'leaking' of body fluids into the salt water environment. That is, the fish can't properly regulate its salt content. A healed old cut will not usually exhibit this white fringe.

2. If the wound is fresh and healing, what you can do is give the fish's mucous coating some help in its effort to heal and seal the area. Some coatings are better than others, however these two I have used and they work for this type of thing. Pro Tech Coat Marine and StressGuard may be used as a temporary mucus layer, or to help the fish repair its mucous layer, for fish that have been transported, netted, otherwise injured, or because of disease or illness, have damaged or lost some or all of their mucous coating. Just follow directions on the product.

3. They are omnivores throughout their free-swimming life. The sheet algae at the young age may not be that attractive since it would probably be use to eating phytoplankton. I would include in the foods you listed some Dwarf Angel food made by some prepackaged food providers.

4. I would always de-worm. It is easy and deals with something you can't easily see and diagnose. You want all internal parasites out that may consume or take up some of the nutrients. Perform no other treatment unless the fish presents a disease or illness. After the 6-week quarantine, the fish is ready to move into its new home.

Congratulations on being a responsible, diligent and intelligent aquarist.

 

[edwing206]

So you got Elliott. Aren't they cool? One of my favorite fish.

 

[Snowboarda42]

Thanks Lee!

Luis- He's awesome. Even under the cheap 15W florescent light over my QT, he shines like he has a filament going around the top edge of his fins. It's way cool. He's also constantly moving and I just actually saw him start eating the Algae sheet I put in there. I'd get one if you can find one.

 

[edwing206]

I'm gonna try to get a pair. I love those guys. Good thing he's eating.

 

[Snowboarda42]

Hey Lee,

I actually got some pictures of the scar on his left side, its smaller than I thought.

I also noticed some of the same colored little ones on his right, I just never saw much of that side since he was first hiding alot.

Is this something that will heal? Or has it already healed?

BTW, flash is on so he is a lot lighter in those pics.

Luis, Check out the filament!

 

[leebca]

Looks healed. It will probably fade with time and proper nutrition. Just keep an eye on it. It is strange the marks should be on both sides of the fish?

 

[edwing206]

Damn, it's glowing! Hope BR has them in time for the sale.

 

[Snowboarda42]

Looks healed. It will probably fade with time and proper nutrition. Just keep an eye on it. It is strange the marks should be on both sides of the fish?

I thought so too, but they really have no symmetry. One side there's 4 small lines that are all about 1/16" and the other side is just one thats 3/8". I'm not too concerned about it, just thought I'd show him off some more

My next challenge is to find Praziquantel :lol:

BTW, is Praziquantel considered "reef safe" other than potentially taking out feather dusters?

 

[leebca]

Praziquantel is safe for many non-mobile invertebrates. But, it hasn't been tested on all. It is a very small amount and added to food and if properly 'encapsulated' should not be exposed much to the tank inhabitants

 

[Herefishyfishy]

I have successfully fed prazipro in food to a Pygmy Cherub with worms.

 

[Snowboarda42]

UPDATE:

I just got back from Vacation (4 days)

I just counted him breathing at 300 (yes 300) times a minute. Super fast.
He's still out and swimming, eats like crazy, seems to act exactly like he did before I left. I did a 50% WC immediately, sucking out all detritus, food, etc, all params are good (pH 8, temp 80.2, Trates, Trites, Amm all undetectable, SG 1.025)

Bigger concern of mine is that he looks like he has silver colored powdered sugar all over him. It looks like its alot smaller size than Ich, but I could be wrong. Its almost like the smallest microbubble you can think of, stuck to the sides of him. It looks like Brooklynella, but less concentrated and a different color. It might be bacterial though since it spread so quickly...

Any Ideas as to what it could be?

 

[leebca]

The symptoms you've described sound like Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum). If that is true, the fish will likely die in a short time.

It needs to be in a hospital tank and treated with copper. I recommend you obtain Cupramine and a Salifert Copper test kit. Follow the directions on the Cupramine bottle closely.

Some people think, 'I'll give the fish a freshwater bath.' That doesn't help in this condition and only stresses the fish more.

 

[Damsel13]

Why Lee would such a healthy looking and acting fish develop velvet?

 

[leebca]

Deb,

Looks in marine fishes can and usually are deceiving. Looks aren't enough to determine if the fish is healthy or not. With a child, the parent might recognize a subtle change in behavior. But then what does the caring parent do? Take the child's temperature? We can't do that with a newly acquired fish. The hobbyist/aquarist hasn't the familiarity nor background to say what is or isn't normal, let alone trying to detect a very subtle change in the fish. What is professionally done with fishes in quarantine is to perform some biopsy and fecal analysis along with skin scrapings to see what is on and in the fish. That's the equivalent to 'taking the child's temperature' for humans.

When a fish is in quarantine with a disease that, for instance, infects its gills, this can go unnoticed for weeks. In the confines of the quarantine tank, the disease is allowed to grow and at some point in time become obvious to the hobbyist/aquarist. Then, when the fish presents, it is (hopefully) cured.

If Snowboard had just put the fish into the display aquarium, OR if Snowboard decided to cut the quarantine time short since the fish 'looked so good' all the fish would be infected right now from what everyone would have sworn was a healthy fish.

I can't help but stay on my soapbox. Sorry. But this is a prime example of the value of quarantine with a proper length of time. Too often I hear, "But I trust my (LFS, friend, trader, supplier)," or "The fish looked healthy," and the worst of all, "I had the fish in quarantine for two weeks and it seemed okay?" They miss the point of allowing enough time for the parasite to show itself. One of the dumbest statements of all -- "My LFS quarantines all fish for two weeks."

Many in the hobby have no idea what professionals go through. EVERY marine life form is quarantined, inspected and sometimes prophylactically treated just to be sure a disease doesn't get into the main system. Some public aquariums are so good at this that is like working in a hospital with contagious patients everywhere, but nothing showing/presenting.

This is a long about way of saying the fish was sick and has been sick for some time, before it was acquired. It has been surviving against the pathogen, but not thriving. The purpose of the quarantine in this case is to give the disease a chance to show itself. Once exposed, the :evil: can be defeated!

 

[Snowboarda42]

Hey Lee,

THIS is the only copper medication that is available in my area. Its a chelated copper medication. Think its okay still? I read the copper sticky you made and it says that complex is the best to use since its safe for all fish, but any complex copper meds I would have to order online...

I also read HERE that you can do FW dips to see if it is in fact MV that is affecting your fish. Should I do that first? Only pet store in my area is Petco...

 

[Herefishyfishy]

If Lee is busy for now, I can pipe in. Almost any Copper treatment is better than none if MV. One advantage to some specific brands, they have matching test kits. For copper to be effective, must maintain a high level dose without ODing the fish. Having a test kit that accurately reads that particular copper salt helps a lot. Use what you have and buy the right one on-line as needed.

As to dips, if the fish is having trouble breathing or is scratching, the dip can give temp help.

These are just my opins, Lee can give much more authoritative advise.

 

[LakeEd]

You might also try contacting Aquatic Dreams in Spokane. I realize Spokane isn't just a hop-skip-jump away from you, but it may be best to get what actually works befor you attempt a copper treatment.

http://www.aquaticdreams.biz/

 

[Snowboarda42]

LakeEd,

I was actually thinking of having him USPS me some, I've gotten tons of stuff from him. It'd just be easier and faster if I could grab it here in town. Can't have your cake and eat it too though, lol. I'm gonna call him in a minute.

Mike,
Thanks for the input, I'll wait and see if he looks like he's flashing. He just breathes faster now, not harder, and he acts like he doesn't even have any problems. Still eats like a pig too.

 

[leebca]

Hate to say it, but a copper treatment for dwarf Angels was always a no-no. Dwarf Angels can't handle chelated copper. Copper in the right concentration often kills these fish. It is only one of two or three groups of marine fishes that don't do well with copper treatment.

Until Cupramine came along, copper treatment of dwarf Angels wasn't much of an option.

A freshwater dip will help you determine if the disease is in fact Marine Velvet. Many (or enough) will come off in the dip for you to inspect the dip water to see them. It isn't a cure, but it can help the fish too, while you get the right meds.