Centropyge Argi

[Herefishyfishy]

Lee, I have read that one can use half doses on chelated copper treatment of Centropyges which are are sensitive to copper exposure (not free copper solution) and keep the concentration at a minimum to prevent poisoning. Bolstering the fishs' immune systems with vitamin soaking and addition is also recommended. Any chance the fish has Brooklynella?

 

[leebca]

Half-doses aren't enough to kill the parasite. Marine fishes don't develop an immunity to a Marine Velvet bloom before it kills them.

It could be be brooklynellosis, but it doesn't present with the spots and the powder originally described.

 

[Snowboarda42]

I just did a FW dip on the little guy. I'm pretty sure he hates me now.

I got RO/DI water, got it to ~80.0 degrees using the microwave at 10 second intervals. I caught him with my brine shrimp net (its softer than the regular mesh ones) and put him in there. He layed on his side until I gently nudged him with my tongs and he swam around, although his new home was only 4"x4". I let him hang out in the FW dip for 6 minutes, and his lower sides turned a whitish-gray color. I didn't see any sort of silver film come off him like the article at the top described, so maybe its not MV after all. Or maybe my dip wasn't long enough. Either way I did do the dip and I'm going to watch and see how he does. If some of it starts to look like its gone then I'll go ahead and order the cupramine and continue with the FW dips until it gets here. Oh, I didn't use Methylne Blue either (sorry lee )

 

[leebca]

The dip was long enough to have identified Marine Velvet. So long as you carefully looked at the dip water after removing the fish, and saw no signs of tiny lifeforms, then I'd say the condition is not Marine Velvet. Also, by now, the Marine Velvet would have most likely killed the fish.

Diagnosis now is a bit of shot in the dark without microscopic examination.

Although a series of Formalin dips does cure brooklynellosis, it also cures several other pathogen conditions. In the absence of visual flukes, worms, or parasites large enough to see, the Formalin dip series may prove useful.

 

[NC2WA]

Lee,

So if a LFS or vendor quarantines a fish for 6 wks, uses Praziquantel to de-worm, appears healthy (ie, clear fins and eyes and is alert and is eating), the process of QT in your own home for another 6 wks is required??

(I believe I know the answer is going to be "Yes", but I thought I would ask for clarity).

 

[LakeEd]

From what I've learned... NO ONE will take the steps needed to REALLY QT a fish like YOU WOULD!

A LFS may do a QT, but they can't do one correctly AND really continue making a profit on their fish... even if you are only thinking about the numbers of fish they need to get in on a continous basis.

What I look for in a LFS that is doing their own QT... they are finding those fish that are VERY sick when they receive them... as well as helping to get their fish eating. Both of those things are awesome things for a LFS to be doing for us... but all in all, its our responsibility to do our own QT to ensure what we put into our tanks are healthy and won't bring any new problems into our little slice of the ocean.

 

[NC2WA]

Ed,

I expected an answer like this (from Lee). LOL
Just thought I would pose this question (an answer) for anyone else that is subscribing to this thread.

Kirk

 

[LakeEd]

Kirk,

I hope Lee isn't in THAT bad of shape... where I can be a "Look-a-like" for him!

 

[leebca]

I had not one but two computer crashes in the last 24 hours. I just got the one up and running a few minutes ago.

I've not ever been aware of any LFS that did a proper quarantine process. These are the basic reasons that hinder the LFS:

1. Time is money. Holding a fish for 6 weeks isn't cost effective. When a sale can be made quickly of a fish that may not be eating, it is too tempting to sell the fish and collect immediate profit;
2. Space limitations. Holding fishes for 6 weeks would limit the number of fishes the LFS could 'move;' and
3. Rarely does an LFS actually keep their tanks separate from each other. That is, the display tanks are part of a larger system. Even if fish are kept in one display for a few weeks, then new fish added to another display but connected to the same system as the first display, the first group of fish are now infected with whatever the latter fish brought in with them. That is to say, the fish aren't really in 'quarantine' at all.

About all the LFS can do is, like previously mentioned, take out the obviously ill fishes and put them 'in the back' for treatment. Besides, it's bad advertising to have sick fish in your tank.

I do recommend not taking a fish from the LFS for about two weeks. Most fish having serious acclimation problems will exhibit in that time. It also gives the LFS a chance to get the fish eating.

When the LFS buys the fish for $4. and sells it for $40, who should be taking the risk? The LFS or the hobbyist?

When I'm trying to determine the quality of a heretofore unvisited LFS, I visit them a few times right when they open in the morning. I count the dead fish before they have the chance to scoop them out of the displays. I then draw up a composite picture over several days on how well their fish are doing.

If an LFS quarantines a fish for 6 weeks and truly no other fish have been added to the tank/system during that time, then there are additional concerns:

4. The LFS help doesn't pay close attention to the fish just sitting there;
5. Contamination from splashes, nets, other water, etc. is very common in an LFS setting; and
6. Last-minute contamination by using collection cups/containers and nets may infect the fish just purchased.

All the above points to the best answer being -- quarantine yourself all marine life.

 

[LakeEd]

See Krik!!!

Even in my "Lee Look-a-like" format, I wasn't able to say it nearly as well, mentioning nearly as many great points as Lee was... and that is even after a frustrating day I'm sure for him working to get a computer back up and running!

 

[NC2WA]

Ed,

Funny !!!

BTW, who is Krik ???

 

[Snowboarda42]

Ok, now to un-hijack my own thread.

My parents live in Seattle (160miles away from me) and I had my Dad get me some medications. I had him pick up Formalin (Quick Cure brand), and Methylene Blue. He's going to mail them to me on Monday and I think I should get them Tuesday. There was a type of De-Worm Medication called Pipzine, I almost got some but it was in powder/capsule form and it was used to treat tank water, so I skipped it.

I'll most likely start doing Formalin Dips and see how that goes, and then go for the Methylene Blue FW dips after or if the Formalin dips don't work.

I might do one more FW dip after reading this post:

14. A simple means of quick identification is to put the fish in a freshwater dip (without methylene blue) for up to 20 minutes. Remove the fish and closely inspect the FW dip water sediment. The small cysts (cyst-1) are just visible to the eye if you have enough contrast (black or dark background). But don't be fooled. It is still best to be viewed under magnification (microscope) for proper identification.

I didn't see much floating in the container, but at the same time, it was a completely clear container. I held it up to a white wall, so chances are I didn't see anything, but something could have still been there. Although it is definitely possible that its not MV seeing as how the little guy is still alive and kicking. He's not breathing as fast now either.

What to I need to look for floating in the FW dip container? Size, Shape, Color, etc. would help

Its a shame he got sick, his QT tank time was almost up (Oct 3rd). At the same time though, I am really glad that I did put him in QT, as my other fish in my DT would surely be affected. Anthias are a PITA to catch.

Lee,
Do you think that its still worth doing a Cupramine treatment on him at this point? I didn't see the symptoms get any worse while I was looking for the Cupramine. I found a place in Seattle that will ship it to my door, I just have to have him order some on Monday. Personally, since I don't know exactly what this could be, I might do it anyways just to keep all my bases covered.

Another interesting point that I found to be really true about your QT tank article is the ability to let the fish become more accustomed to seeing the owner. I have the tank in my Kitchen (I'm there alot, lol) and I see him out much much more now, even when I am around. He used to run and hide but now he hardly thinks twice when I'm near the tank. A definite plus in my opinion.

 

[edwing206]

Where in Seattle are you getting it Elliott? Si? Who's that?

 

[leebca]

Marine Velvet would not likely be the problem, right now. It usually kills in much less time. I'd prefer the Formalin baths. Make sure you do it properly. An error means killing the fish. Follow the directions very closely: Formalin Treatment by Terry D. Barteleme.

Dead Marine Velvet parasites will usually not float. They sink to the bottom of the container. Shape/size/color is almost irrelevant because they are just able to be seen by the unaided eye. You're looking for small specs at the bottom of the water. It is useful sometimes to have the exact same container with water in it that wasn't used to dip the fish as a comparison.

 

[Snowboarda42]

FW DIP #2:

Tonight, about 45 minutes before tank lights out, I noticed the little guy acting different. He was swimming around the tank, a little faster than usual, and doing this "flicking" thing where he would shake his head back and forth really fast. Kind of like what you'd see a fish who was noticing his own reflection in the glass, except he wasn't nose up against it. I figured something was bothering him, so I did another FW dip (no Methyl Blue). I did it for 8 minutes this time, and I know he hates me now. 8 minutes later I put him back in the QT tank.

I snagged an LED flashlight, turned off all the lights in a room, and pointed it up from the bottom. From the top down I saw a few pieces of dust, maybe a really small piece of uneaten food or two I managed to get in the net, and then at the bottom, I saw what can only be described as little white dots. They were floating ~1mm from the bottom, and had to be the smallest particles I've ever seen, white/gray in color. Think of a really small microbubble, thats about the width across of a human hair (from your head :shock.

After I put "Cruiser" back in the tank, turned the tank light off, he went for the smaller black PVC pipe in there I have against the glass and glared at me while I went and looked through the water from the dip. When I was done with the dip water, and had compared it to the same container with Fresh Fresh Water, I shined the flashlight on him really quick to see how he looked. It looks like whatever came off of him might have taken some pigmentation with it, but I'm not too sure, as it was still pretty dark and I didn't look for long so as to stress Cruiser even less than I already had.

I'll describe what he looks like in the AM tomorrow.

EDIT: Lee, the Formalin dip link isn't working at the moment, happen to have a copy saved?

 

[leebca]

I wouldn't worry about the Formalin procedure. Sometimes his sight is 'over loaded' and not working. I'll have to download it in the future so I can 'get around' this problem. I think that would still be okay, copyright-wise, since he offers it free and his name is still on it. Anyway. . .

Sounds more like Marine Velvet now, so long as you don't see any obvious white spots on the fish the size of a grain of salt. I have to hand it to the guy, it must be pretty tough to hang on this long with this problem.

Begin a treatment with Cupramine as soon as you possibly can.

Be VERY thankful you didn't let it bring this into your marine system!

 

[Snowboarda42]

I definitely am thankful I didn't introduce it to my tank; if theres one thing I hate, its catching fish.

This morning he looks as healthy as the day I got him. I don't see any powder on him whatsoever, so I think that the FW dips are proving to be a good temporary fix until I get the Cupramine. I think I'm going to end up doing both Formalin and Cupramine Treatments, since this is pretty difficult to describe.

Lee, is there any reason as to why I shouldn't be adding and Methyl Blue to the FW dip solution? Is it simply to make the Cysts appear better? Or does the Cyst leave an open sore that the Methyl Blue can get into and "burn" the fish?

My plan is to first do a Methyl Blue "bath" for 30 Minutes, and while he's in the "bath" take the QT tank and tear it completely down, wash the tank w/hot water, rinse the sponge out in hot water as well, scrub all PVC pipes and the heater in hot water too, put fresh water back in the tank (same sg, pH, etc. as before). By then the "bath" should be done and I'll put Cruiser back in the QT tank. I'm hoping this will help get rid of most if not all of the Cysts, eggs, etc. and give him even more time while I order up some Cupramine. Even if the MV does come back, it should give him more time between dips that stress the little guy out.

Thoughts?

EDIT:
New Dilemma - I'm going to Whistler B.C. for the last week of downhill mountain bike park of the season. I'm going to be gone for 6 or 7 days, and I have someone to feed the tanks. I'm trying to decide whether or not to start the Copper treatment before or after I go. What should I do? I can start the copper treatment as soon as Thursday the 27th, and I'll be leaving the Sunday the 30th, coming back the 6th or 7th.

 

[leebca]

The FW baths can't defeat Marine Velvet. It isn't a 'fix.' What it does do is rid the fish of many of the parasites, but not all. It is a postponement or delay of the inevitable which sometimes doesn't work. It has obviously helped in this case.

I would start the copper treatment immediately. A bit tricky not having the water quality and copper content being monitored. Not a good time to leave it to someone that just feeds the fish. Do you have no one, club member or more knowledgeable person to leave the fish in their care?

The plan of cleaning out the QT isn't bad, except you'll disrupt, maybe kill off, the biological filter, sending the QT into a bad-water cycle. This takes the matter back to who's going to make sure the water quality is good while you're away?

:?:

 

[Snowboarda42]

The FW baths can't defeat Marine Velvet. It isn't a 'fix.' What it does do is rid the fish of many of the parasites, but not all. It is a postponement or delay of the inevitable which sometimes doesn't work. It has obviously helped in this case.

I would start the copper treatment immediately. A bit tricky not having the water quality and copper content being monitored. Not a good time to leave it to someone that just feeds the fish. Do you have no one, club member or more knowledgeable person to leave the fish in their care?

The plan of cleaning out the QT isn't bad, except you'll disrupt, maybe kill off, the biological filter, sending the QT into a bad-water cycle. This takes the matter back to who's going to make sure the water quality is good while you're away?

:?:

I think I can get the "fish feeder" to do a few simple water quality tests. From my understanding copper puts the Bio-Filter into a sort of "limbo" state correct? Meaning it doesn't kill off bacteria but instead they just don't do anything until the copper is gone, correct? I'll most likely make up a few batches of fresh SW mix and have them heated/aerated constantly so that the "babysitter" can do changes as needed, or once every 2 days at least just for spite.

 

[leebca]

It depends on the bacteria strains as to their reaction to the copper. Many do just as you say. Others keep on working. Seldom do they die. The copper addition is in two stages, giving fish and bacteria an opportunity to adjust.

Will the new water have copper in it? or will the sitter be diluting the copper with the water change? Things are getting a bit complicated for a sitter. But if that person can do water tests, the fish should be okay.