Closed Loop

[nsamouroux]

Both Salty and Sid are from Spokane, they probably each tipped over at least two cows since lunch :badgrin:

 

[CarlaW]

Both Salty and Sid are from Spokane, they probably each tipped over at least two cows since lunch :badgrin:

or at least 1 beer.

 

[Myteemouse]

two beers, and by cows you meen kids then chalk up 3 for me .. LOL

 

[nsamouroux]

Oh come on... I can't be the only guy from Stevens / Spokane County that put the cattle tipping stories to the test! I lived right next to a ranch for about 12 years as a kid, I had to find out if it was true! They fall over like a stack of dimes

 

[Saltyfish]

I like my milk from the tap!

 

[Saltyfish]

well I am outtie on this one we got way way way off topic.

 

[nsamouroux]

Yeah, I've got filter socks to clean

Oh well, it was fun (and informative!) while it lasted

 

[golf nut]

well I am outtie on this one we got way way way off topic.

You owe me a case of beer, I told you I could get you over 1600 posts by midnight.

 

[Saltyfish]

You owe me a case of beer, I told you I could get you over 1600 posts by midnight.

LMAO we never said that LMAO

I will get you a case of beer when I get my 4way body, I need the invoice still.

 

[returnofsid]

That is it I am suing Spokane Pump for false advertising based on your statements.

Really Pumps are designed to pump from one location to another. the action of pumping is sucking and pushing.

If you do not have something sucking or pulling your source to the impeller so it can be pushed or moved to the new location you do not have a pump. it is the old suck and push affect.

And you're a Hydraulic Engineer? The "old suck/push effect" is how "Piston Pumps" work...but that's about it. I haven't seen a piston pump in use, for liquids, in a long time, since they require a constant up/down motion of a piston, so they wear out quickly. Not to mention, the orce required for the piston to rise and fall to move a liquid, usually requires either a lot of electricity, or a person, pumping a handle. However, they're still commonly used to move gases, such as oxygen, since not as much force is needed. As for centrifugal pumps, an impeller turns, creating a vortex, and creating a High Pressure, it pushes water away from itself. As water is pushed away from it, water behind it automatically and naturally floods in, to take it's place, in a low pressure environment. Just like if you were tying to dig a hole, in water, with a shovel. Every shovel full of water you removed, more water will automatically rush in, to take it's place. It's the natural movement of water, and the natural behavior of water in a vacuum. It's not about a pump sucking. Pumps push, creating a vacuum, which is naturally flooded with water. Just as the shovel isn't sucking water, it's pushing water "out" of a hole. Other water is naturally replacing and refilling the "hole."

Think of a pump as a bunch of tiny, ummm....we'll say crickets, for the lack of a better animal....so...we have a bunch of tiny crickets with tiny shovels. They're all shoveling away at the water, trying to dig a hole. Each tiny shovel full is pushing water away from the "hole." As water is pushed away from the "hole" by each tiny shovel full, water is naturally flowing into the "hole" replacing the water that's been pushed away.

Now if only those pesky crickets wouldn't drown so quickly.

Or you could look at it this way...even when you drink water through a straw, you aren't pulling or sucking the water up. You're removing air from the straw. Atmospheric pressure is doing the rest. You've created a vacuum in the straw, the liquid in the cup has pressure, pressing down on it, from atmospheric pressure. The pressure pressing down on the liquid is greater than the pressure inside the straw, so liquid flows into the straw, to equalize the pressure. In doing so, it climbs the straw. The problem is, atmospheric pressure will only push water about 40 feet. After this, no matter what the pressure is, the atmospheric pressure needs help, in the form of a pump, to push the water further. This is why shallow wells, but not deep wells, can use a "suction pump." The pump isn't really sucking water, it's removing air from the pipe, creating a vacuum, which allows the atmospheric pressure to do the rest of the work, by 'pushing' down on the water, which pushes it up the pipe, into the vacuum.

As for well pumps...with deep wells, (Yes, I too grew up on a farm, tipped my share of cattle (never really did) and we had a 380 foot deep well) pumps are lowered way down into the well, well below the water line. These pumps push water back up the pipe to a holding tank, pressure tank, etc. For deep wells, this type of submersible pump is required. A suction pump, on the surface, could never suck water up from the depths.

Now, there are different pumps that are sometimes used for SHALLOW wells. These are Suction Pumps, as apposed to Jet Pumps. They actually do SUCK water. They're placed ABOVE the water line, of a shallow well. They actually suck water up, from a shallow well. Then the water is pushed, various distances, to a holding tank, pressure tank, etc.

The reason Suction pumps are sometimes used on shallow wells is because they can be, and are less expensive. However, a Suction pump could never be used on a deep well. Why? Because they don't suck very well and wouldn't be able to suck water up from the depth. This is because pumps don't suck very well. Even pumps that are designed to suck still push better than they pull.

Someone stated that this argument isn't about if pumps push or pull...ahhh here it is

We are not arguing about sucking, we are saying that the result of a pump pumping it causes flow at it's input.

...however, as far as I could tell, WAY Back on page 4, post 47, I mentioned that pumps don't suck, they push. A few posts further down, post 55, to be exact, that point was argued. Since then, all I've been trying to explain is that pumps push, not pull.

No, they push water out and water naturally floods the back end.


Okay, James, congratulations on your 1600th post!! However, it's really going to be shame to see you go...as per your comment on another thread...lol. G'night all.

 

[Saltyfish]

Hey mike where did you learn so much about pumps?

I am just wondering because I started in the Navy and I am sure they would love to hear this theory you are stating here.

Also the Thumbs Refinery in Long Beach, Then Pump Engineering, and the 300 Resort homes in the Philippines that I designed, installed and maintained with their huge swimming pools in the hot springs resort area when I was there for a few years.

Also all the pump manufactures that label their pumps SUCTION would like to hear it too.

Weather you have to prime a pump or not on the type of pumps we are talking about there is a suction side where the pump sucks the water into it and discharges through the discharge or output side of the pump.

 

[nsamouroux]

That's sort of what I was getting to... What does it matter the process used to achieve the suction, as long as it does the job they designed it for? If they can accomplish the same task with fluid dynamics that they could with a larger, more expensive component to the pump then doesn't it make sense for them to just let the natural properties of a fluid create the suction for the intended purpose? Seperating pumps by type and then saying "this one can only draw water 50' vertically because the water is pumped out the other side and the water from below has to rush upwards to fill the vaccum created" seems like arguing over terminology... What does it matter WHY the pump achieves the "suction" as long as it's observed to take place?

Ah, hell. Saltyfish, You're the fluid engineer with the proven background and documented experience, so you get to explain it. I'll just wind up being a smartass again and using Star Trek references :lol:

 

[akunochi]

What in the hell happened in here?

 

[CarlaW]

From what I could gather, Salty got his post count over 1600.:lol:

 

[Saltyfish]

From what I could gather, Salty got his post count over 1600.:lol:

lol

ok lets recap
I was thinking of putting in my OM 8WAY on a closed loop.
Paul from OM (golf nut) and I talked on the phone for well over an hour.
I posted some of the points Paul said.

Somewhere

michael (returnofsid) says pumps only push they do not suck

I and the other people say yes they do.

He said no they don't

We said yes they do

Someone saked him a few questions he seemed to ignore and just said no they don't

I gave some (not all) of my job history and said yes they do.

Somewhere along the line I got the post count over 1600, owe someone a case of beer, got my invoice for my OM 4WAY. paid my invoice, got some sleep and woke up to someone asking what happened here.

I think that brings us to now....

and all I can say is oh $(%& here comes my headache again


There that should cover it.

Thanks for following along someone please close thread and save me a headache

 

[CarlaW]

Since this is your own headache, I think it should stay open.

What else have we learned you ask???

Michael and James tip cows in their spare time.

I think that about sums this up, don't you think?

 

[nsamouroux]

Prettymuch

 

[Saltyfish]

Well it is wednesday I need to make my weekly rounds to the lfs. You guys have fun arguing with yourselves I need to go buy some stuff. I hope my lights came in

 

[returnofsid]

nsamouroux, about the only reason it matters is in how you design your system. If you design a system, based on the belief that pumps are designed to "suck," your system will be way underpowered, use lots of electricity for a minimal amount of water movement, pumps will wear out quickly, etc. I could continue with the negatives of this route.

However, if you design your system on the grounds that pumps are designed to "push" water, you're starting out on the right track.

Since James is the only one here who happens to be a fluid dynamics, or hydraulic engineer, I'll post this link to make it easier for us "laymen" to understand. Pay particular attention to #s 1542, 1270, 1125
http://www.howeverythingworks.org/water_distribution.html

 

[Saltyfish]

Thanks for the link sid

I see in 1542 is clearly states

So far, so good. But if you make that straw longer, you'll need to suck harder. Of course they are talking about a piece of straw and the fact the pump cannot suck more then 40 feet and you would need to install a pushing pump at the bottom if you are going to use a piece of straw and make it 40 feet deep.

I see in 1270 you are talking about a man SUCKING water through a garden hose. Which is impossible for a normal man to do. Most people would just install a pump.

I see 1125 talks about a water pump in a car, which is not what we are talking about and does not say anything about sucking or not sucking. It only states it creates pressure.


Again you said pumps do not suck. You never said some pumps do not suck.
There are all sorts of pumps out there and the pumps we use for closed loops will suck so long as we keep the suction side shorter then the recommended use. The suck the water into the suction side and push it out through the discharge. In aqaurium use since most people use them below the tank they are feed by gravity and do not need to suck but if install the pump above the tank it would have to suck.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges. Quit twisting it all around and stick to the subject at hand.