Closed Loop

[Saltyfish]

Can you clarify that a little?

do you have a sump?
do you pull the water from the sump?
do you push it back into the same chamber of the sump you are pulling from?

after all if the overflow goes too fast you are just mixing the good with the bad.
If the overflow goes just right your overflow acts as a pre skimmer (so to say) and all the oils and proteins on the top of the water go into your sump.

Think of it as a blender. The fast you go the more is mixes. The more it mixes the harder it is to tell the juice from the water (when making juice).

Same sort of thing with oils from fish , corals, proteins etc that sits on the top of the water.

 

[roscoe]

Oh you don't want any of the garbage corals I have they are all throw a ways from other reefers. LMAO

Oh please Adam!! You have some sweet stuff in your tank.

 

[golf nut]

There's also some differences in that "formula" between becketts / downdraft skimmers and the needlewheel / venturi skimmers. I'm sure having a recirculating type would also change things as well for a monsterskimmer like your recirculating quad beckett and whatnot. Too many variables to determine a firm "if you have X, then you should do Y" type equation unless you set one up for each situation or different equipment combination. I don't even want to try to figure that part out, although it would be a good discussion! I did the same research into my system, but what holds true for my system's sump flow rate with my skimmers / drain plumbing / return doesn't hold true for your system with the under-tank sump and different style skimmer.

True

We were discussing a typical recirculating skimmer.

 

[Myteemouse]

Wow. Did we really just whine, complain, and argue this into a 10 page thread in the course of an afternoon / evening? I nominate Salty for the "Most Contentious Posting" award for October :lol:

If I knew what that big word meant, I would probably be laughing right now. LOL

 

[Saltyfish]

I got my stuff from Thang Dang and Michael so I dont have anything nice. LMAO

I have some from Dang I dont even know what they are. He wont tell me and he told me not to trade or frag them. He said it better I dont know what they are.

I guess that means people will laugh at me if they knew I had them (LMAO)

 

[nsamouroux]

Contentious: Makes people whine, complain, and argue until a thread reaches 10+ pages. It's in the new Webster's edition!

 

[returnofsid]

....Yes, pumps certainly DO suck water. How else could you take a Magnum 350 canister filter (a basic impeller-based pump design) and set it on top of the tank and still get water flow through it? It's certainly not gravity feeding or siphoning when the canister is sitting on top of the tank :lol:. You see it all the time in well pumps, or stream-side pumps for irrigation (a reference for all you fellow redneck farmer types). The pump sits a good distance from the water source and out of any possible flood plane and SUCKS water that entire distance from the water source and then sends it through the output plumbing. I personally have used a VERY large pump to take water from a natural stream / spring and pump it uphill almost 100 yards (hill climbed 300' in 100 yards or so) to a koi pond.

Pumps most *certainly* can suck water, not just push it.

Your examples don't actually work. A Magnum 350 canister filter would NOT work unless you primed it. This is because they PUSH, not PULL, water. As they push water out, water is naturally replaced, by vacuum. Now, if you set that same Magnum 350 canister filter, on top of a tank, EMPTY, and turned it on, it'd never work....it'd just burn up the motor. The reason it wouldn't work is because they don't suck, so can't fill themselves up. They need to already be full, in order to have water to push out.

Your well pump examples also don't work. Well pumps, more precisely called "Jet Pumps," are placed DOWN IN THE WELL, and PUSH water up and out of the well.

There are a few pumps that are able to suck, but aren't designed to. They also don't suck near as well as they push, since they were designed to push.

On an older topic...GPH of water is GPH of water, no matter how you look at it. If a pump is rated at 3000 gph of water, it's pushing 3000 gph of water, as long as it's rated correctly. If an impeller powerhead is rated at 3000 gph of water, it's also pushing 3000 gph of water, also, as long as it's rated correctly.

 

[CarlaW]

do you have a sump?
do you pull the water from the sump?
do you push it back into the same chamber of the sump you are pulling from?

after all if the overflow goes too fast you are just mixing the good with the bad.
If the overflow goes just right your overflow acts as a pre skimmer (so to say) and all the oils and proteins on the top of the water go into your sump.

Think of it as a blender. The fast you go the more is mixes. The more it mixes the harder it is to tell the juice from the water (when making juice).

Same sort of thing with oils from fish , corals, proteins etc that sits on the top of the water.

My skimmer feeds from where my overflows come into the sump, and the skimmer discharge is in the last compartment with the intake to the return pump. There is about 4-5 baffles in between the 2, I can't remember.

 

[Saltyfish]

I dont know what that word means either I am just a redneck farmer from Stevens County. ok Spokane County but is there a difference?

 

[Saltyfish]

My skimmer feeds from where my overflows come into the sump, and the skimmer discharge is in the last compartment with the intake to the return pump. There is about 4-5 baffles in between the 2, I can't remember.

Now what is the rating on your return pump and what is the rating of your skimmer?

4 posts to go

 

[Myteemouse]

Contentious: Makes people whine, complain, and argue until a thread reaches 10+ pages. It's in the new Webster's edition!

I know, it was a joke..
I guess I was the only one laughing this time. :badgrin:

 

[nsamouroux]

Your well pump examples also don't work. Well pumps, more precisely called "Jet Pumps," are placed DOWN IN THE WELL, and PUSH water up and out of the well.

There are a few pumps that are able to suck, but aren't designed to. They also don't suck near as well as they push, since they were designed to push.

On an older topic...GPH of water is GPH of water, no matter how you look at it. If a pump is rated at 3000 gph of water, it's pushing 3000 gph of water, as long as it's rated correctly. If an impeller powerhead is rated at 3000 gph of water, it's also pushing 3000 gph of water, also, as long as it's rated correctly.

The well pumps I've used do not sit inside the well, they are external and draw the water upwards for irrigation purposes, so it does hold true. Interesting, because I have the Magnum 350 running right now sitting on top of my tank with a polisher cartridge, you don't have to manually prime these, just fill them to a certain point in the canister itself and the pump action does the priming itself. The same holds true if you put the pump down below the water line, it'll still not run correctly if it is dry when you turn it on unless the water level in the canister is above that self-priming line.

 

[CarlaW]

Now what is the rating on your return pump and what is the rating of your skimmer?

4 posts to go

The Xtreme Cone 250a is rated to a 700 gallon tank with low bioload or a 400 gallon system, like mine, with a fairly heavy bioload. If that is what you mean???

My return pump is a Sequence Barracuda, 4500gph.

 

[roscoe]

The Xtreme Cone 250a
.

I need this skimmer Charlie!! Is the Askoll pump a 1500 or 2500? I have a 1500 already so I would just need the body.

 

[nsamouroux]

Is your skimmer fed by a pump, or fed directly by an overflow drain pipe? I'm not familiar with your setup. What Salty / Paul are saying boils down to is that there's no real reason from a filtration basis to send more water through your sump than the skimmer can process. If you have a skimmer that can process 500gph (not factoring those recirc skimmers, since that's a completely different situation) then there's no reason to send 1000gph through your sump. The dirty water is just going to get sent right back up to your tank. It's wasted energy in the form of excessive water flow / pump power unless you have another reason for exceeding the skimmer processing capacity with the sump throughput.

 

[golf nut]

Your examples don't actually work. A Magnum 350 canister filter would NOT work unless you primed it. This is because they PUSH, not PULL, water. As they push water out, water is naturally replaced, by vacuum. Now, if you set that same Magnum 350 canister filter, on top of a tank, EMPTY, and turned it on, it'd never work....it'd just burn up the motor. The reason it wouldn't work is because they don't suck, so can't fill themselves up. They need to already be full, in order to have water to push out.

Your well pump examples also don't work. Well pumps, more precisely called "Jet Pumps," are placed DOWN IN THE WELL, and PUSH water up and out of the well.

There are a few pumps that are able to suck, but aren't designed to. They also don't suck near as well as they push, since they were designed to push.

On an older topic...GPH of water is GPH of water, no matter how you look at it. If a pump is rated at 3000 gph of water, it's pushing 3000 gph of water, as long as it's rated correctly. If an impeller powerhead is rated at 3000 gph of water, it's also pushing 3000 gph of water, also, as long as it's rated correctly.

OK then please explain a reverse carlson surge device. where no water is ever pumped in.

 

[Saltyfish]

Your examples don't actually work. A Magnum 350 canister filter would NOT work unless you primed it. This is because they PUSH, not PULL, water. As they push water out, water is naturally replaced, by vacuum. Now, if you set that same Magnum 350 canister filter, on top of a tank, EMPTY, and turned it on, it'd never work....it'd just burn up the motor. The reason it wouldn't work is because they don't suck, so can't fill themselves up. They need to already be full, in order to have water to push out.

Your well pump examples also don't work. Well pumps, more precisely called "Jet Pumps," are placed DOWN IN THE WELL, and PUSH water up and out of the well.

There are a few pumps that are able to suck, but aren't designed to. They also don't suck near as well as they push, since they were designed to push.

so if I have a ABOVE ground pump put into a deep well and I primed the line to remove the air and turned the pump on to fill a water tank that is lower then the pump itself wouldn't it have it suck the water out of the well and push it into the tank?

I remember a Commercial on TV and it was from Spokane Pump. Their moto is and was always in the commercial "We fix things that suck" Since pumps do not suck can we sue them for false advertising?

On an older topic...GPH of water is GPH of water, no matter how you look at it. If a pump is rated at 3000 gph of water, it's pushing 3000 gph of water, as long as it's rated correctly. If an impeller powerhead is rated at 3000 gph of water, it's also pushing 3000 gph of water, also, as long as it's rated correctly.

Yes that is what we have been saying all along. impeller pump styles are rated at the OUTPUT and the prop-base are rated are total throughput (also called flow) from start to finish.

3 posts to go...

 

[CarlaW]

I believe it to be the 2500 roscoe. This thing does skim!!!!!

 

[nsamouroux]

I haven't given up on my popcorn yet and evening entertainment, carry on!

 

[CarlaW]

Is your skimmer fed by a pump, or fed directly by an overflow drain pipe? I'm not familiar with your setup. What Salty / Paul are saying boils down to is that there's no real reason from a filtration basis to send more water through your sump than the skimmer can process. If you have a skimmer that can process 500gph (not factoring those recirc skimmers, since that's a completely different situation) then there's no reason to send 1000gph through your sump. The dirty water is just going to get sent right back up to your tank. It's wasted energy in the form of excessive water flow / pump power unless you have another reason for exceeding the skimmer processing capacity with the sump throughput.

I see what you are saying. I feed the skimmer with a mag 5. Everyone who I have talked to before and after I got this skimmer says I have no problem with what I am running thru the sump. It may be a waste of energy, but it is sure making my corals happy.