Fish Moving Time Please!

[parajack]

Thanks Steve and Nikki,
I may have painted a bleaker picture than I intended. I've attached a couple of pics. One of the pics shows what looks like red on the PBs head, but that is only from my trick photography. Whats red looking are acutally white splotches. Its looking more and more like post ick skin irritation to me... that said with all my experience dealing with this Some fresh eyes looking at the PB is probably a really good idea right about now. If there is any stress, it's probably from being stared at and having his picture taken

Anyway, I dropped in a couple of large plastic glasses, so he at least has the option to hide if he wants to. They wouldn't sink so I added a bit of coral rubble to each one (no, not from the main display:badgrin: ) I've been feeding Formula One flake through the day along with some algae on a clip now and then, and frozen Formula one,two, and frozen brine shrimp in the evening a couple of hours before the wc. All food is supplemented with Kent Garlic Xtreme. NH3 doesn't seem to be a problem for me, so I've been feeding them moderately.

What will be the first obvious sign to me that the qt is cycling, and roughly when should I expect this to occur?

As always, thanks!!
Jack

 

[steve-s]

I've been feeding Formula One flake through the day along with some algae on a clip now and then, and frozen Formula one,two, and frozen brine shrimp in the evening a couple of hours before the wc. All food is supplemented with Kent Garlic Xtreme.

Did you get the Selcon yet?

The flake (supposed to contain Beta Glucan but I'm waiting on e-mail confirmation) is fine, but skip the brine very poor in nutrition for the most part. Stick mainly with the frozen Ocean Nutrition formula products you have plus the nori, that would be a decent diet. Once/if you get the Selcon, alternate that with the garlic every off day.

If available to you, I would also suggest this one...
http://www.oceannutrition.com/products/formulafoods/spirulina.html

What will be the first obvious sign to me that the qt is cycling, and roughly when should I expect this to occur?

Have you ever registered nitrite or nitrate throughout the process? Hard to say on what to expect, if you had a nitrate reading I would suspect the ammonia to be a somewhat "false possitive". Since there is no NO3 registering (?), you still have nitrites to worry about before the nitrates.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Hi Steve,
An eye opener this morning after reading your reply. Last night before I did the wc I tested NH3/NH4 as usual. It was only half or less the normal value for the first time. Total ammonia had been .5-.6 since the beginning. Now all of a sudden it's only .1-.2 with NH3 being so low that according to novalek's chart I'm looking at .01 or so NH3. So, yahoo I get to skip a water change This morning I tested ammonia again and got the same result .1-.2 of NH3 / NH4. I got curious and tested NO3 and NO2 and MAYDAY NO3 was 20+ and NO2 1.6-3.3 or higher depending at how good you are at determining different shades of purple. I'll admit, I hadn't been testing NO3 and NO4 daily. The last test was 3 days ago with .1 or less readings on both. Good grief now whats going on? Of course all fish seem fine and PB is looking like he is well into yet another recovery mode. A few de-pigmentation spots and a few left over white splotches but much better overall. Were you able to make any speculative judgements from the last jpgs? I did a 20% wc and then checked all 3 again. NH3 was really low, NO3 was maybe 10-15, and NO2 was maybe .8 but hard to tell with that test. It's like someone flipped off a switch on the NH3 in the qt, and turned on the NO2 & NO3. I may have fed a bit more the preceeding couple of days but couldn't have been that much of a difference..

Things I'm doing today: ordering a Salifert Marine Advanced test kit.
Ordering Selcon. I'll chuck the brine shrimp and check lfs for the spirulina, though they are limited.

Thanks,
Jack

 

[steve-s]

LOL... I was wondering why no posts about the other readings. Quite normal though so don't be alarmed, it's just the natural progression of one bacterias waste feeding a different strain of bacteria. Ammonia converts to nitrite and then to nitrate. Each being consumed by a subset of varying bacteria and expelled as a different byproduct of feeding. The decrease in ammonia naturally just means the population of nitrosoma bacteria are increasing. Scroll down to nitrogen cycle... http://www.cas.muohio.edu/~stevenjr/mbi202/cycles202.html

The "yahoo I get to skip a water change" just flew out the window though :badgrin: . Nitrite is just as bad as ammonia although not as fast acting or long term in it's damaging effects. You still need to get the NO2 as low as possible as it will inhibit the hemaglobin in the fish's blood from sorbing O2 and effectively suffocates the fish. Nitrate being the lowest on the scale of concerns but still needs to be kept in check. While an otherwise healthy fish can deal with high/higher NO3 levels, it also feeds opportunistic bacteria (via DOC) so the lower the better.

Were you able to make any speculative judgements from the last jpgs?

The fish looks healthy but unfortunately the fucus (crispness?) of the shots do not give any reasonable detail to give you any kind of feedback in that regard. There is a decent amount of depigmentation but that is to be expected. The main thing to be concerned about here is MHLLE which this tang is very prone to and one of the reasons to stay on top of the diet and fortifying the foods. Stress reduction, water quality and such all playing a role.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

NH3 continues to drop with total Ammonia now only showing .1 on the color chart. I think I'm reliably reading Nitrates at about 15, but the Nitrite test is pretty much worthless, as the vial color doesn't really match any shade on the test strip. I would expect to see moderating levels of NO2 and NO3 in the next week or so? Also, now that NH3/NH4 are down, is it likely that they will stay down now that the tank is cycling? I'll keep up with the daily wcs and wait for a hopefully more accurate test kit. I'll try and improve diet. Flame Angel seems to be recovering at about the same rate as the PB. I think both fish will be like new in less than a week at the rate they're going. The only thing that really threw me in this whole thing so far was how good the PB looked 4 or 5 days into the Hypo, after looking absolutly terrible a few days before. I mean I now how typical it is for this to happen during the ick cycle, but he really looked amazingly well. His recovery from the cycle he is finishing with now has been much more difficult for him. Hopefully this hasn't been due to water parameters....
Jack

 

[steve-s]

Water parameters can have serious affects on fish health. More sensitive species like the tang can be like the "canary in the coal mine" so to speak.

The ammonia should continue to fall until it no longer registers. Keep in mind here though that total ammonia is not the concern, only NH3. In a typical cycle, NO2 generally takes longer (3-6 weeks) to establish in this part of nitrification. Since there are no starting references to numbers or the time frame for the NO2, I think you can expect at least some elevation for the next week or two. The 15 ppm nitrate is actually a good sign relative to the nitrite though. Typically that doesn't show up until there's a decent population of nitrobacters present so it should be too long now. Just be sure you keep testing and keep up with the water changes. All should go smoothy.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Hi Steve,
I've got a reliable test now for NO2. I was really disappointed in the Hagen kit.... maybe it had outlived it's shelf life or something, but I've heard others complain also. I'm using the Tetra kit, and backing that up with the Salifert kit for Nitrite so I think I have it covered.

NO2 has been .8 mg/L for the past couple of days.
NO3 has been about 12-15 or so.
NH3 is approaching undetectable, and this is verified by the Seachem badge as well. Still nothing in the tank for the PB to browse on. PB is looking better every day. I am having one problem, however. I've had a pair of PJ cardinals for a year or so. About 6 months ago, I removed a third which was a smaller male which was being harassed by the larger male. I ended up with a very happy pair and everything was hunky dory until just a few days ago when the male started really beating up the female to the point I would remove it from the tank If I had a place to put it. Fins are all ripped up and its being forced to hide out all the time. I haven't the slightest idea what upset the balance. The fish "look", and are showing better colors than ever...Maybe it's just too crowded in the tank, but I don't understand the change in the behavior. These fish have been very close up until now...
Talk to you later,
Jack

 

[steve-s]

As far as the NO2, a few more water changes will keep that in check.

With the cardinals, this is actually quite common when placing fish from a large system to a much smaller one. Pairing behavior will change quite dramatically as will the "community" as a whole. One of the reasons I tell people not to waste their money on fish sold as "mated pairs". When the environment changes dramatically, so can the relationship. There is also the possibility they are not male/female as sexual dimorphism in this species is non existant except for some slight size difference, the male being a little larger. Still not accurate in the least.

Since neither of these fish can be removed (best option), you might try fashioning a piece of eggcrate material and seperating them within the same tank. Giving most of the swimming room to the majority of the fish. I would not use a breeding box or the like. Much too small and will stress the fish.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Hi Steve
Well, a dissapointing setback today, to say the least. The best part of this hypo treatment is that I felt that I had a sense of control over the outcome and was actually feeling confident that I was, in fact, in control. Things have been progressing nicely, and quite frankly, I shouldn't blame my loss today on the hypo itself, more likely as a result of my unwillingness to set up two different qt tanks to give fish room. I'm not sure if what happened today was just an accident or what. Water parameters today were just as they were yesterday, maybe NO2 and NO3 just slightly lower today. My routine was normal. I got up, tested the water, and then prepared Formula one and two with Garlic Extreme. All fish, here is a refresher: PB, small Flame Angel 1 1/2"s, one firefish, one small blue cromis (1"), one small tank raised percula (1 1/2"s), and a pair of 2" PJ Cardinals. Everything seemed fine in the tank with the exception that the larger male pjc has clearly been working over the smaller female. With these fish, there are clearly physical differences which seem to differentiate the sexes, but that is just my rookie observation. The smaller male pjc which I removed over the summer was identical to the one in the qt, only difference being size. Anyway, pair or not, one was definately working over the other and many of his fins were showing the signs. The aggressive pjc has never made an observable aggressive move towards any other fish in the year I've had them, this includes the time in the qt. So I feed them and every fish eats, even the ripped up pjc. PB is looking great, FA is looking great also.. You might say I'm pretty tuned into these fish right now, especially those two. So anyway, after observing feeding, I return to the tank maybe 20 minutes later and find the FA upside down on the bottom, then thrashing and darting about wildly. The fish looked completely out of it, like I was looking at just muscle spasms or something. Not knowing what else to do, I dipped him (the fish clearly didn't even know that he was being netted) and put him into my 15gal make up tub with identical water parameters. He was dead in less than 10 minutes. This was the fish I had just watched eat aggressively, and a fish which had shown me zero signs of stress or any other symptons other than a bit of ick in the past 6 months.
What I won't accept:
The aggressive pjc attacked and killed the FA. The FA could have avoided the pjc in his sleep, given his size and the amount of hiding places in the qt.
The water parameters somehow killed him all of a sudden.
What I will accept:
Something happened which caused physical blunt force trauma... iow, he smacked his head on the glass and pretty much did himself in....
The fish load on that 29g qt tank was too much. Maybe the pjc made a move toward the FA, and then the FA darted into the glass.....

I'd love to hear your theory on this. I know I was advised that it would be "optimum" to divide the fish up into 2 qt tanks....It just doesn't look that crowded (especially now):evil:

If I loose a fish, I really, more than ever, want to understand what went wrong. I know s*** happens sometimes despite our best efforts, but this REALLY threw me.
Later,
Jack

 

[steve-s]

Wow.. very sorry to hear that!

Trauma would be decent enough explaination given the health of the other fish and this very sudden onset. There's also the possibility something was amiss with a particular piece of the food injested, "luck of the draw" if you will? I seriously doubt aggression had much if anything to do with the flame angle in this particular matter.

FWIW, dipping a fish is extremely stressful. I don't want to make you feel worse but it was a very poor decision. Isolation would have been a better option or at the very least segregation within the same system. Hard to say what the outcome would have been otherwise. More than likely though it may not have made a difference....

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Yea, thats what my wife said.... it was probably something he ate I knew I shouldn't have said "dipped" after I posted. All I did was net him and put him in the large makeup water tub right below, and believe me, he didn't even know he was being netted. I didn't give him a bath if thats what you meant.... I'm sure you must have really been wondering about me right about then OK, you see your Flame Angel in his dying death spasms on the bottom of the tank, and you think wait, I know what will help this guy.... I'll just give him a freshwater bath and that will cure him Wait, maybe if I mix in garlic and ginger that will really do the trick

After reflecting on this event thru the day I feel confident that It probably wasn't something I did directly. Who knows already, I can only do what I can do....I've killed a fair # of fish over the years due to ignorance, but I never had anything close to this happen before, and I've been working really hard on removing the 'ignorant' factor. One minute he's a happy fish, (or as happy as he could be in a qt), and a few minutes later he's gone.....The whole process from watching him eat to seeing him dead on the bottom of the make up tub was less than 20 minutes....

Is there a thread which talks about 'sudden death syndrom' or has stories of other hobbiests experiences like this?

Also, should I be worried about my frozen food?

NO2 was down to .3 mg/L and NO3 was 10ppm. Are these ok for maintenance levels? Is it time to consider easing up on the daily wcs?

Jack

 

[steve-s]

Not sure on any threads like that but as far as the food goes, I would replace it just to be safe. I know it was a stab in the dark but still, why risk it.

The water specs are definately looking better. Nitrate is okay but I would still try to get the nitrite to below 0.1 mg/l. Anything higher will interfere with O2 absorbsion.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Hi Steve,
Well the qt seems to be cycling nicely. I've gone to every other day on the water changes and NO2, N03, and NH3 continue to drop. A couple of quick questions. My 55 display looks great.... I have an ECO 60 which is the larger HOB model. The culerpa hasn't skipped a beat in growth. Am I going to have any problems when I reintroduce the fish around Thanksgiving? Should I be wary of NH3/4 spikes? I've been feeding the anenome and frogspawn, and the shrimp with occasional squid or krill. I was thinking I would move the 2 double sponge filters into the display with the fish as I don't have a sump to keep them, or to cure new ones. Next time I'll be able to get the qt up and cycled in a heart beat. Thanks again for walking me through this difficult task. I'll try and maybe write up a 'Rookies guide to HYPO - a Rookies experience' for your review to maybe help others.

Notes from the last few days: PJCs are dating again. Don't ask me why. PB is looking mighty fine, but still shows di-pigmentation spots occasionally, and still has some of the left over ick scars on his bod and fins. I was looking at a prior pic of him in my photo gallery at rc and he sure looked bluer than he does now. I'm sure it will take time. I'm supplementing with the Selcon now, alternating it with the garlic. I put some nori in without garlic today and he looked at me like "what are you kidding".

I'm accepting the fact that this fish may not survive just due to the realities of the size of his environment, and the fact that it will still likely be at least Christmas before I get the 320 up and running. Hopefully he'll survive in the qt and then the 55 in the interim. I'm going to rebuild my 55 aquascape before I move them back and try to make room on both sides of the reef for swimming room. I certainly won't be adding any livestock. It's too bad I lost the FA as the display is just teeming with pods...

The PJC which was beat up has a small thread of white something on his lower lip which I've been watching. The idea that this might be a parasite instead of scar tissue or something is sure kicking around in my mind, but I just can't determine by looking. Seems like a strange place to have been nipped by his buddy. I'm amazed at how fast his fins are recovering from the beating he took. Is there a simple way to determine if this is some kind of bug on his lip?

Jack

 

[NaH2O]

Jack - was the beat up PJC fighting back at all?

Am I going to have any problems when I reintroduce the fish around Thanksgiving? Should I be wary of NH3/4 spikes? I've been feeding the anenome and frogspawn, and the shrimp with occasional squid or krill. I was thinking I would move the 2 double sponge filters into the display with the fish as I don't have a sump to keep them, or to cure new ones.

I would be wary of any spikes when the fish get moved. Any chance of moving just the PJCs first? Allow them to be in there for a week or so to let the 55 catch up with the new load, then introduce the PBT. I do think bringing the sponge filters to the tank would be wise, as they are accustomed to the fish load. Don't forget to raise the salinity slowly before moving them to the new tank. I figure you probably know this already, but wanted to toss that out.

This has been an absolutely great thread, and I'll be waiting to read what Steve's comments to your questions are.

 

[parajack]

Thanks Nikki,
Thats a good idea to introduce the fish back in in stages. I guess I never really did "get it" in terms of the actaul bio load on a system by just one or two fish. My perception of what is a light load and a heavy fish load were obviously skewed. Keeping too many fish in a fresh water tank and getting away with it was probably my reason. This qt / hypo experience has been a real eye opener for me. I think the process of maintaining correct hyposalinity conditions while cycling a smaller tank at the same time is something everyone serious in the hobby should consider at one time or another. Its clearly obvious to me how someone could lose livestock by not paying attention for even part of a day with a heavily loaded cycling qt/hypo tank. I lost a fish despite my absolute best efforts. Although I can't be certain what happened.... the end result was the same... one dead fish.

 

[steve-s]

The PJC which was beat up has a small thread of white something on his lower lip which I've been watching. The idea that this might be a parasite instead of scar tissue or something is sure kicking around in my mind, but I just can't determine by looking. Seems like a strange place to have been nipped by his buddy. I'm amazed at how fast his fins are recovering from the beating he took. Is there a simple way to determine if this is some kind of bug on his lip?

More than likely the beginnings of a bacterial/viral infection. It is possible it could be a worm problem but I highly doubt it. Keep an eye on it to be sure it does not progress or show signs of redness. Since the aggression has abated, it should get the proper food it needs to help in it's recovery of which the hypo conditions will help immensely and has been a contributor to the fast healing of the fins.

If you can post a clear macro shot it might help but otherwise just observe, keep up with the water changes/food aditives and see if the fish's own immune system will kick it. What gram negative antibiotics do you have easy access to?

I'll try and maybe write up a 'Rookies guide to HYPO - a Rookies experience' for your review to maybe help others.

I'd love to read it as I'm sure many others would as well. Something like that is always a benefit.

Just to expand on what Nikki said in terms of fish returning, slowly is definately the best suggestion but I am wondering if you have always fed the animals noted above in this fashion or just since the removal of the fish? My concern being, it may not have the same amount of a nutrient load that ammonia excreting fish would. Typically I recommend feeding a fallow tank almost the same as you would if the fish where still there to maintain the bacteria but not so much it degardes water quality/spurs nuisance algae.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Hi Steve,

>>What gram negative antibiotics do you have easy access to?

I wish I could make a coherent reply to that question but I can't. Could you just maybe recommend something effective to have on hand and I will order it next time around?

>>but I am wondering if you have always fed the animals noted above in this fashion or just since the removal of the fish?

I've fed the frogspawn and bali anenome all along. Most everything is growing with 220w of compact pcs. My 55 is pretty much the oposite of a 'sterile' highly skimmed tank. The nutrient levels seem high and I trim a good 3-4 cups of calerpa every 2-3 weeks. NO2 and NH3 are undetectable, but NO3 is 3-5ppm. I run just a small Prizm hob skimmer which does manage to keep the surface protein free if I fiddle with it constantly.. My feeling is that the tank seems very stable and with the ecosystem that is only 7 months old, I will probably be fine returning fish. I will use due diligence none the less.

There are probably too many variables to even ask this question but I'll ask it anyway... It's been 28 days since I began hypo, and 23 days since the PB was absolutely covered with ick for the last time. The fish endured several cycles of ick, with the related trauma to his fins and body. In your experience, what would an average recovery for a sensitive fish like the PB be like? 2 weeks? 6 weeks? maybe 2 months? He seems to be doing great and I almost wish he didn't seem so well as the stronger he gets the more guilty I feel keeping him in a 29g tank.

I seem to have leveled off at <.2 NO2 and 10-12ppm NO3. I've been skipping daily wcs and it doesn't seem to have any affect on these parameters. NH3 stays just barely detectable no matter what. I have brown and some green algae growing throughout the qt now, which is giving the PB something to break the boredom. Should I take any futher action at this point? Should I reduce wcs on a graduated scale, or should I just keep changing water no matter what to give the fish the best possible environment? Should I keep striving for <.1 NO2 even though it seems to have leveled off at .2? What would you do? Go to every other day, or every third day? Maybe every day but just enough to vacumn any waste off the bottom? What is normal in the cycling qt/hypo tank scenario? Do you have a link to a good summary article about tank cycling in general?

The growth on the PJC is diminished. Nikki asked earlier if the smaller PJC was fighting back at all during the period of unrest. The answer is no if you are reading Nikki. It was totally submissive. Why is this important?

Is the healing process of the PBs pectorial fins like growing out a lost fingernail, or does all the fin area recover like skin? I probably just need to be patient... I think things are going well. I plan on moving fish back to the display on Dec 1st or 2nd. I have to go to training in SEA for 6 weeks starting Dec 5th. I may have to re-think this as PB had his last ick spots on Oct 17th. Maybe I should move the other fish - fish that never showed any ick - back in on the first, and wait a week or two longer for the PB....
Hope you're staying dry down there..
Jack

 

[steve-s]

Hi Steve,

>>What gram negative antibiotics do you have easy access to?

I wish I could make a coherent reply to that question but I can't. Could you just maybe recommend something effective to have on hand and I will order it next time around?

Having a well stocked LFS around can be a hard to find. For a strictly general use antibiotic, I would suggest Maracyn II. It should be fine for the more common ailments you come across. It's not going to work on everything so be sure you familiarize yourself with who has the widest range of availability if the need arises.

The nutrient levels seem high and I trim a good 3-4 cups of calerpa every 2-3 weeks. NO2 and NH3 are undetectable, but NO3 is 3-5ppm. I run just a small Prizm hob skimmer which does manage to keep the surface protein free if I fiddle with it constantly.. My feeling is that the tank seems very stable and with the ecosystem that is only 7 months old, I will probably be fine returning fish.

The NO3 reading is actually a good sign. I think as long as you add the fish back one at a time (except the pajama's) you should be fine.

In your experience, what would an average recovery for a sensitive fish like the PB be like? 2 weeks? 6 weeks? maybe 2 months? He seems to be doing great and I almost wish he didn't seem so well as the stronger he gets the more guilty I feel keeping him in a 29g tank.

Judging by the pic you attached, I'd say the tang is well on it's way to a good recovery, mabye a few more weeks to 100%. You're right though, too many variables to make a guess normally. The main factors being stress, treatment chosen and hobbyist dilligence. I think you have done a superb job, I wish there were more like you.

should I take any futher action at this point? Should I reduce wcs on a graduated scale, or should I just keep changing water no matter what to give the fish the best possible environment? Should I keep striving for <.1 NO2 even though it seems to have leveled off at .2? What would you do? Go to every other day, or every third day? Maybe every day but just enough to vacumn any waste off the bottom? What is normal in the cycling qt/hypo tank scenario? Do you have a link to a good summary article about tank cycling in general?

No links, sorry (Nikki might) most I have read seem to be quite general. Providing the best possible conditions is still the best course of action though. Low nitrite levels are still gooing to be a source of stress. Keep up with at least the every other day changes to be sure that it stays in check. Once the NO2 reading abates, then you can get away with less. I know they're a PITA, but at this point, still necessary.

Is the healing process of the PBs pectorial fins like growing out a lost fingernail, or does all the fin area recover like skin? I probably just need to be patient... I think things are going well.

Depends on what caused it/severity of damage. Fin damage will generally heal in a few days with a healthy immune system, clean tank and no bone loss. Soft tissue and cartilage will regenerate fully as a rule, bone loss will not.

I plan on moving fish back to the display on Dec 1st or 2nd. I have to go to training in SEA for 6 weeks starting Dec 5th. I may have to re-think this as PB had his last ick spots on Oct 17th. Maybe I should move the other fish - fish that never showed any ick - back in on the first, and wait a week or two longer for the PB....

I would start raising the salinity at the end of next week. Go slowly and ensure the increase is done gradually over a week. Doing daily water changes with normal salinity water is usually the safest. 20% daily at 35 ppt will get you back up to normal in about 5-7 days.

Typically I prefer waiting on the transfer back to the main about 2 weeks after the fish are back to full salinity. This gives you the opportunity to observe the fish and ensure the treatment was successful and that no secondary infections arise.

Barring that, (just the PJ's and the PB?) transfer the PJ's first, wait a week and then add the PB. The main will have been fallow 6 weeks total (?) by the time PJ's are added back so you should be okay.

Hope you're staying dry down there..

LOL.. not. Been pissing like hell down here!

Cheers
Steve

 

[NaH2O]

The growth on the PJC is diminished. Nikki asked earlier if the smaller PJC was fighting back at all during the period of unrest. The answer is no if you are reading Nikki. It was totally submissive. Why is this important?

I'm still here...following along . I asked that because I wondered if perhaps it was trauma to the mouth from fighting back.

I would continue to do daily water changes, and siphon up waste from the bottom. A change in routine, I think might upset the balance you have achieved so far with the tank.

If it were me, I'd keep all the fish QTed for the full hyposalinity treatment, from the date of the last observed ich spot. Then, add another week to bring all the fish back up to the salinity of the tank they will be moved too.

 

[NaH2O]

Just caught Steve's post....I'll see if I can find a good link on tank cycling.