Fish Moving Time Please!

[parajack]

Hi Terry,
I've been reading for hours last night and today....I'm ready to move on past the naive or 'lucky' (actually, not so "lucky" right now) stage and get a qt up and running. I've killed a few fish over the years due mostly to ignorance I'm sad to say but am learning slowly... Anyway, I've a beautiful Tenecor bent edge 320g display in the shop which I'm preparing to setup. The new (should have waited) Powder Blue in my 55 is 5-6 days into visible stage of marine ick. I thought the tank was ick free, but now I'm wondering about that little bit of white speck inconsistency which has been on my Flame angels tail off and on for many months. I believe now that the flame angel probably has some good immunity going, and is able to keep the ick at bay with the help of the cleaner shrimp, but the reality is that my 55 display is infected, whether it came in with the powder blue (my lfs doesn't qt, or really care for that matter), or has been there all along. Other fish have shown no signs, but I know the time bomb is ticking big time right now, with fat ick cysts all over the powder blue getting ready to pop, if they haven't already.

Hyposalinity is the treatment for me. I've got a refractometer on the way. My question to you is I have a rectangular 20 and a 35 hex both available for qt. I've got a double bio-wheel on a 10g established which I'll move to the qt, along with a hot magnum. I assume it's ok to run carbon during hypo treatment? I believe the 20 would provide a better swim situation for the powder blue. Fish: larger powder blue, flame angel, 2 pj cardinals, 1 firefish, 1 blue cromois, 1 small percula. My other question is what is the best time of day to tear down my 55 so I can net the fish? After the light cycle? Also, could you plz direct me to a thread or info which discusses the best technique for netting and moving fishes....and suggestions for eliminating the most common mistakes and ideas for the overall reduction of stress during the move from display to qt...Yea, I know, I've been doing this for years, but I've also been running without a qt for years.... If I put them in the 20, and do the hypo treatment correctly, do I stand a good chance with the powder blue if he's in pretty good shape at the get go? Just how stressful is it on a big time swimmer like that when you reduce his world to a 20g with a bunch of pvc fittings on the floor If I honetly thought that my chances would be better just hoping for the best and feeding and supplementing, I would avoid the transfer to the qt.....

I've been supplementing food with garlic (for whatever its worth) Powder blue is very strong and eating well and has a good relationship with the cleaner shrimp. I'd really like to succeed with saving this fish and the others. I really believe that If I can see him safely to the 320g, which is still a couple of months away from being set up) he may live happily with plenty of room to swim and exist. I realize this scenario is being played out so often you are probably tired of yet another ignorant hobbiest about to murder such a beautiful creature. I realize it's a slow death sometimes no matter what your abilities.. Hopefully, I can start doing everything reasonably possible on my part and this particular scenario won't be played out again....

Thanks!

 

[steve-s]

I'm definately not in Terry's caliber but if you don't mind...

I assume it's ok to run carbon during hypo treatment?

If you can get them a <<Polyfilter>> would be a better option. Carbon is good but the polyfilter will help control the nitrogens where carbon falls short.

I believe the 20 would provide a better swim situation for the powder blue.

Definately but not solely for swimming room. The 20 long offers better surface area for gas exchange. One of the more common issues with hypo is pH due to the diluted chemistry (best checked 1-2 times daily along with alk). Although it can be easily augmented with buffers, a hex tank does not offer nearly the gas exchange potential. It's more a matter of practicality.

Fish: larger powder blue, flame angel, 2 pj cardinals, 1 firefish, 1 blue cromois, 1 small percula.

Since you have the two tank available, I would house the angel seperate from the tang and one or two of the smaller ones in the hex. Even with what was mentioned above, the pH issues would be easier to control than the potential water degredation of that kind on bioload in one tank, not to mention aggression from cramped confinement. A matter of degrees if you will.

My other question is what is the best time of day to tear down my 55 so I can net the fish? After the light cycle?

Not really a best time persay but the "easiest" time would be after lights out. Fish are generally less aware and easier to capture/corral.

Also, could you plz direct me to a thread or info which discusses the best technique for netting and moving fishes

http://marineaquariumadvice.com/no_nets_please.html

....and suggestions for eliminating the most common mistakes and ideas for the overall reduction of stress during the move from display to qt...

No overhead lighting unless necessary, reduced ambient room lighting, light bioload, plenty of hiding places, good to above average water quality and located in low traffic areas. Resist the urge to take drastic action unless absolutely necessary and be sure water changes are done with well aged/aerated SW that has been properly pH and temp adjusted matching the same salinity.

If I put them in the 20, and do the hypo treatment correctly, do I stand a good chance with the powder blue if he's in pretty good shape at the get go? Just how stressful is it on a big time swimmer like that when you reduce his world to a 20g with a bunch of pvc fittings on the floor If I honetly thought that my chances would be better just hoping for the best and feeding and supplementing, I would avoid the transfer to the qt.....

The tang should do well if the stress is minimalized and tankmate aggression curbed. The key here is stability in the water parameters and proper diet. Also don't be hesitant to treat for possible secondary infections if they arise. Keep the temp stable (78-80°) and augment foods with vitamins high ih HUFA where possible or Beta glucan if you can find it. Waiting on aquired immunity is often wishful thinking, you are better off treating and leaving the main tank fallow. Hopefully all future fish will go through this process as well.

I've been supplementing food with garlic (for whatever its worth) Powder blue is very strong and eating well and has a good relationship with the cleaner shrimp.

Garlic has somewhat been proven as a good addition to an already proven cure so I would suggest you continue. As to the shrimp, I'm sure you're more than aware that these kinds of "hopefulls" fall short of actual cures and at best leave the fish at an equilibrium with the parasite. In the end, erradicating the problem with a proven remedy is the best long term solution.

Sorry for the "disection" but it was easier due to the amount of points to be made.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Thanks for the well thought out reply Steve, very helpful. I'm making up ro water and will make the switch this evening. Do you have a personal best schedule for lowering salinity for the hypo treatment? How much original display tank water percentage would you recommend transfering to the qt tank initially?

<Resist the urge to take drastic action unless absolutely necessary

does this mean copper or other chemical treatment?

Thanks again!
Jack

 

[steve-s]

How much original display tank water percentage would you recommend transfering to the qt tank initially?

100% fill with the main tanks water. You won't need to acclimate the fish that way. Simpley catch and release. Just be sure the temp has stabalized first.

Do you have a personal best schedule for lowering salinity for the hypo treatment?

Do 20% water changes with the RO water every 12ish hours until you reach 14 ppt. Depends on your starting salinity to how long but should be done in 2 days at most. Adjust the new RO used for pH/alk and temp so it match's the QT parameters. Very important as well as monitoring pH and salinity several times a day. Water quality can be an issue especially in the fish few weeks so also be sure to have plenty of SW prepared ahead of time for water changes at the same 14 ppt.

<Resist the urge to take drastic action unless absolutely necessary

does this mean copper or other chemical treatment?

Yes and no, it wasn't meant for one specificall thing really. In regards to the copper though, no I would not recommend that. Unless your 100% sure of what you are doing, the two combined treatments can often be leathal. Lowered or hard to manage pH can make the copper more "available" in solution to the point it becomes completely toxic. Antibiotics and such would be fine though.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Hi Steve,
We'll that sure was a hoot :shock: :evil: I spent most of the night making the switch. Dark with a black net worked pretty well, but still ended up unloading the whole tank to get the little guys. Last eve, the powder blue started hanging out in the blast from one of the power heads and seemed more irritated. He was still eating well and 'seems' pretty healthy, but he is flashing a little bit on the bottom occasionally now. Does hanging out in the power head flow mean anything specific? At any rate, my display is now free of all fish and the clock is running on the display anyway. Tomorrow I'll head to Home Depot and pick up a bunch of pvc fittings to put in the qt for shelter. There is no aggression amongst the fish that I've been able to see. The flame will chase the firefish once in awhile but nothing serious. I dropped in a couple of coral skeletons initially. I bought two new sponge filters, and tore down a 10g I was running and transferred the double bio-wheel penquin from that tank to the qt. I used 90% display tank water and have digital temp control at 79deg. I'm sure this is going to be a challenge managing the water parameters but I'll give it my best shot. What kind of time frame am I looking for to see relief in the P Blue tang? Will it start to experience relief about the time I hit 14 ppt?

The only thing you'll probably disagree with is that I put them all in the 20. I have a hot magnum... should I add that also with filter sleeve and fresh carbon? The Flame Angel has zero issues with the PB, the PJ Cardinals... well, I'm sure you know how they behave.. The firefish, and the percula are very small, and the blue cromis is only an inch long.... I'm happy to do regular water changes, but I really don't want to be ignorant here........Do you really think I should set up another tank? The idea of setting up a 35qt for a 2" flame angel is causing me grief. I suppose if I had to, I could use the 10g I just broke down to share some of the fish load, but I have no other cycled media to use.... that's the reason I loaded them all into the 20....
Anyway, I've got to get some sleep before I do the first 20% reduction...
Thanks,
Jack

 

[steve-s]

but he is flashing a little bit on the bottom occasionally now. Does hanging out in the power head flow mean anything specific?

An attempt at parasite relief and possibley low O2 or pH. Sometimes it's nothing at all. Check the pH but otherwise it's not a concern since you will be beginning a treatment.

What kind of time frame am I looking for to see relief in the P Blue tang? Will it start to experience relief about the time I hit 14 ppt?

Hypo does not affect the throphonts (attached stage) so it can be as long as a week before you see things clear up on the fish. As long as the gills are not heavily infested (laboured gilling), the tang should be fine. Once you see that all the fish no longer have visible spots, start the 4 week countdown.

Do you really think I should set up another tank? The idea of setting up a 35qt for a 2" flame angel is causing me grief. I suppose if I had to, I could use the 10g I just broke down to share some of the fish load, but I have no other cycled media to use.... that's the reason I loaded them all into the 20....

Ideally two would have been better but you'll have to play it by ear so to speak. The main reasons I suggested the two tanks was not soley for water quality control but inevitable aggression given the amount of fish vs tank space. Less stress and higher immune response. The higher nutrient load will also be a concern for opportunistic bacteria so be sure to stay on top of water changes. Check the three nitrogens (NH3/NO2/NO3) morning and night along with alk/pH and salinity. It is not uncommon to need to do 2x daily PWC's under normal circumstances but with a heavily stocked QT you may need more. You can help the water quality by siphoning out detritus and uneaten foods after each feeding or when ever it's noticable.

If you can find them I would definately suggest a polyfilter.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Well I got up today and found the qt tank in good shape. Fish fed aggressively and the PB was definitely less stressed, and 'looked' better.. I'm not sure if you can make any judgement from the attached jpg. He is again hanging out in the flow of a small pump. He doesn't seemed stressed or bothered, just likes the water movement I guess...

I've ordered a new probe for my Pinpoint ph reader. I was putting it off because I'm still researching controllers for my 320g, and I haven't had a chance to come to any conclusions as to which model to get yet. Anyway, that was a real challenge getting the ro water buffered to match the qt tank. There must be an easier way? ie... digital ph readout? I started out adding 1/4tsp to 5 gal of water as directed on the container (see jpg). I ended up having to cut and dilute the 5gal twice to bring it down to where it would even register on the high range ph test I'm using. Man, that is some concentrated stuff. I was looking into the container, which is at least 1/4 empty, and wondering how many fish I probably killed by being careless with that stuff ....I'm sitting at 23ppt right now and well drop it down to 18 or so later this evening again. The refractometer I ordered should be here tomorrow.... In the meantime I'm making do with an Instant Ocean swinging arm device which I know are not supposed to be very reliable, but that's all I have for now...

Thanks for the great feedback.

>>Check the three nitrogens (NH3/NO2/NO3) morning and night along with alk/pH and salinity. It is not uncommon to need to do 2x daily PWC's under normal circumstances but with a heavily stocked QT you may need more. You can help the water quality by siphoning out detritus and uneaten foods after each feeding or when ever it's noticeable.<<

This even with a fully cured double biowheel running? Would I expect to be able to back off on the PWC's in 3-4 weeks after the sponge filters get up and running? I'll be testing regularly and I'm planning and setting myself up for daily water changes. I guess I'm pretty naive when it comes to understanding what is lightly stocked, and what is heavily stocked. If you want to get a really good laugh, let me know and I'll send you a pic of my 120 fresh....(but gee, the fish are so small when you bring them home from the lfs...)

Probably the best thing that's coming out of this is that I'm definitely motivated to get my fish room set up correctly so hopefully I'll never see another 5 gal bucket.... at least not for normal maintenance..
Jack

 

[parajack]

Late night update....
Went in to do the next stage of the hypo treatment and found the PB really covered with ick, the worst I've seen him. The ick cycle in the display water must have been further along than I had realized. I suppose it takes a few days on the fish before the spots are big enough to see? Anyway, I'd like advice on when to take further measures to try and save the fish. His breathing doesn't seem labored, and he's eating, etc... but I know a fish with ick will eat until almost the end....right? Like you said, it's going to be several days until the hypo treatment starts helping him..... I have Formilite 2 and Clout available... Suggestions?
Jack

 

[steve-s]

As far as the pH, the Seachem buffer should do the trick given the amount of borate they use. Once that runs out I would suggest Kent's Superbuffer DKH, it works very well. Be sure the room the tank is in has good outside ventilation and the lid your using is gas permeable, no solid glass/plastic.

>>Check the three nitrogens (NH3/NO2/NO3) morning and night along with alk/pH and salinity. It is not uncommon to need to do 2x daily PWC's under normal circumstances but with a heavily stocked QT you may need more. You can help the water quality by siphoning out detritus and uneaten foods after each feeding or when ever it's noticeable.<<

This even with a fully cured double biowheel running? Would I expect to be able to back off on the PWC's in 3-4 weeks after the sponge filters get up and running? I'll be testing regularly and I'm planning and setting myself up for daily water changes. I guess I'm pretty naive when it comes to understanding what is lightly stocked, and what is heavily stocked. If you want to get a really good laugh, let me know and I'll send you a pic of my 120 fresh....(but gee, the fish are so small when you bring them home from the lfs...)

Evenentually the bacteria will "catch up" but with the hard to control pH, it makes bacterial reproduction tough. Once you get it stable, the biofilter will improve. Be sure to ease back on the "aggressive" feedings in the meantime. When using grazing foods for the tang, opt for types of veggie matter that don't fall apart easily making it harder to clean up. Brocolli fluorets work well over nori. Less carbs and protein but a good vitamin level. Just be sure it's changed daily for fresh no matter what has not been eaten. Suppliment that with a good frozen marine preparation like Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef (contains beta glucan) or the like.

Late night update....
Went in to do the next stage of the hypo treatment and found the PB really covered with ick, the worst I've seen him. The ick cycle in the display water must have been further along than I had realized. I suppose it takes a few days on the fish before the spots are big enough to see? Anyway, I'd like advice on when to take further measures to try and save the fish. His breathing doesn't seem labored, and he's eating, etc... but I know a fish with ick will eat until almost the end....right? Like you said, it's going to be several days until the hypo treatment starts helping him..... I have Formilite 2 and Clout available... Suggestions?
Jack

The spots on the fish will take a few days to become visible. The transfer from the main to the QT is a certain amount of stress so that can sometimes contribute to a faster infestation. The good part is you should only see a lessening of the trophonts once the salinity gets below 16 ppt which you should be by tomorrow at the latest. Personally I would target a minimum of 14 ppt to account for evap and read errors.

As far as the level of infestation, as long as the fish has no difficulty breathing, it should be fine. The parasites on the body will cause the fish discomfort but will not kill it. It's only when the parasite infests the gills (which causes hyperplasia) that it becomes deadly. Do not use the other meds mentioned. I would however scout the local LFS in your area for SW Maracyn II just incase it or any of the fish develope secondary infections.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

Oh and BTW, you still need to get some PVC elbows for the fish to hide in. They will also serve as bacterial surfaces. They're not "pretty" but a definate ++.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Ok Steve :badgrin:
I feel sorry for the poor guy, I don't think he's terminal, just miserable. I'm thinking I should put a plastic back scratcher in there to give him something better to rub scratch his forehead with I took the coral skeletons out and now it just some pvc fittings, and they don't seem very good to rub on. His respirations seem 'relaxed, no more than maybe 100 per minute. I couldn't believe how many specks he had on him last night, and the other fish- not even a speck on the Flame Angel. Today he is showing much less spots, but his whole body is covered with welts from the ick. Are these welts the very mature cysts getting ready to pop, or are they left over from guys that have dropped off going into the next stage?

I'm sitting at 16ppt right now but still with the swing arm instrument. The more accurate instrument should be here this afternoon, and a new probe for my Pinpoint tomorrow... These instruments should make life much easier. PH is less stable as you mentioned...

There is one thing after all my reading that I'm still not clear on. Is it just random chance that the ick did not infest the gills of the PB to the point that it was fatal, or are they likely in the gills in heavy numbers, but the PB is just a healthy enough specimen to not be really hurting yet or developing any secondary infections?

Thanks again for staying with me on this...
Jack

 

[steve-s]

Don't worry about the lack of "scratch posts" their better off without it.

Are these welts the very mature cysts getting ready to pop, or are they left over from guys that have dropped off going into the next stage?

More commonly it's what is left after the trophont has detached. They should shrink back fairly quickly as long as the water parameters are stable/clean. This is especially where it becomes necessary to watch for infection.

There is one thing after all my reading that I'm still not clear on. Is it just random chance that the ick did not infest the gills of the PB to the point that it was fatal, or are they likely in the gills in heavy numbers, but the PB is just a healthy enough specimen to not be really hurting yet or developing any secondary infections?

There are most likely some trophonts in the gills but not enough to affect the tangs health adversely just yet. Random chance is a way of looking at it to be sure. The level really depends on how many complete life cycles the parasite has gone through which is an unknown. Each new tomont can release 200+ tomites so the sooner the treatment begins, the less likelyhood of it reaching a problematic level. The fishs' own immunity comes into play as well. A healthy fish having a much better chance at fighting off the theronts attempts to attach.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Hi Steve,
Well things seemed to have settled down and I'm sitting at 14-15ppt in the qt now. The PB looks like a war zone but seems to be coping. The refractometer arrived today and works great. By the way, the Instant Ocean swing arm hydrometer was dead on in agreement with the new refractometer...
It seems like the ph wants to fall pretty much constantly. Is it normal to have to add buffer on a regular basis during the hypo treatment, even once the tank has leveled off at 14-16 ppt? Haven't been able to detect any Nitrite or Ammonia yet. Does running carbon have any affect on the buffering agent, or any other negative affects to the QT? I know I read not to use any 'old' carbon.... whats your thought on this?

Whats the single most common way that people screw this up, after getting things up and running in the qt, and the hypo treatment underway?
Thanks,
Jack

 

[steve-s]

By the way, the Instant Ocean swing arm hydrometer was dead on in agreement with the new refractometer...

Have it Bronzed, it's one of the few... :lol:

It seems like the ph wants to fall pretty much constantly. Is it normal to have to add buffer on a regular basis during the hypo treatment, even once the tank has leveled off at 14-16 ppt?

Mostly during the lowering process. Once the salinity is @ the desired level you may still need to buffer occassionally. Be sure the room and thank are both condusive for maintaining pH properly ie.. venilation & water movement.

Does running carbon have any affect on the buffering agent, or any other negative affects to the QT? I know I read not to use any 'old' carbon.... whats your thought on this?

Carbon is fine, just be sure it's rinsed with RO/DI before use. You shouldn't "re use" carbon if that's what you mean, it's pretty much useless. Polyfilters work better in this regard.

Whats the single most common way that people screw this up, after getting things up and running in the qt, and the hypo treatment underway?

There's actually two, not checking & maintaining the salinity several times each day. If at any time the salinity gets above 16 ppt through evaporation, the tomonts will release new tomites. Which is why I recommend 14 ppt as a treatment level, leaves room for error.

The other is ending the treatment too soon. The ideal treatment time is to wait 4 weeks after the last spot is seen on the fish, not just a 4 week stint at 14 ppt. Many are also too eager to move the fish back to the display tank. Once the salinity has been brought back up, an additional 2-3 weeks should be allowed to pass to be sure the treatment was successful and monitor for secondary infections. If the main tank needed to be fallowed, the more time the better.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Great, thanks Steve,

I had to ask on this one.... last night I stumbled onto the thread at reefcentral which I'd suspect you may have browsed....the following quote after the death of a tang due to ammonia spike...

>>However, I e-mailed WetWebMedia after my Tang died and Bob Fenner said he no longer recommends hypo because it happens so often.<<

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595224&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

This thread has much discussion about coping with ammonia spikes in a new qt. This is very worrisome to be as I haven't been able to detect any NO 1,2, or 3 yet. I'm going to get some new test kits today, as the ones I'm using are old. From the experiences of the some of those folks, you can't turn your back on the tank for hardly a second without losing the cycle and having a NO3 spike or some other catastrophe...

Is it possible my fully cycled double bio-wheel is really stepping up to the task here for me? I believe the following is the case, but I wanted to confirm it with you. As I've been lowering the ppt count in the qt, has my bio-wheel been becoming less effective? In other words, do potential ammonia spikes become much more of a possibility now for me that the tank is stabilized in hypo mode, even with a fully cycled bio-wheel? It seems that most of the problems are happening when people go into the qt with no cycled media...Also, it seems like many are targeting 12ppt.... what is your reasoning for 14.?

Steve, if you can direct me to a thread which covers some of this stuff in more detail, I would be happy to read to cut down on some of the questions you've probably been answering over and over..... I have read alot but always still more questions...

Thanks again,
Jack

 

[NaH2O]

Hey guys - great thread! Jack, I am very thankful for all of your questions, as I think this is a great treatment. I know there is an article Terry B put together on his website that explains the hyposalinity and why the mark of 14ppt is good.

Maintaining the salinity at 16ppt or less has proven to be a highly effective treatment for cryptocaryonosis (Bartelme, 2001a, b). However, this may change with if low salinity variants of Cryptocaryon irritans become common or widespread. The salinity (not to be confused with specific gravity) must be maintained consistently at 16ppt or less for the entire duration of treatment. I suggest 14ppt to allow for any fluctuations in the salinity during therapy while providing some margin for error.

From the article: News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon Irritans - Part Three of Five

 

[steve-s]

I had to ask on this one.... last night I stumbled onto the thread at reefcentral which I'd suspect you may have browsed....the following quote after the death of a tang due to ammonia spike...

>>However, I e-mailed WetWebMedia after my Tang died and Bob Fenner said he no longer recommends hypo because it happens so often.<<

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595224&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

This thread has much discussion about coping with ammonia spikes in a new qt. This is very worrisome to be as I haven't been able to detect any NO 1,2, or 3 yet. I'm going to get some new test kits today, as the ones I'm using are old. From the experiences of the some of those folks, you can't turn your back on the tank for hardly a second without losing the cycle and having a NO3 spike or some other catastrophe...

Well with all due respect for Mr. Fenner, hogwash..

Actually I have read several post on the afore mentioned site (WWM) and found it to be quite contradictory of itself in that regard, let alone the topic you mention. There is no clear direction from him in the quarantine department really, nor treatments.

The issue is not with the parameters, it's with the methodology as a whole and improper information (or lack thereof) that some convey through message boards et al. QT's are looked upon as a bad thing by some and kept in the closet until it's absolutely necessary. The best use for a QT is someplace it can be established and left standing at all times. Not left barren only to be set up at the last minute. Which I think if you read a majority of the threads that question the use of QT's, I would say a solid 95% are set up "on the fly" or without transferable biomaterials. You would actually be suprised how well a properly cycled QT will fair with the types of treatments thrown at it.

In regards to hypo treatments, it's no different. Ammonia, nitrite etc.. can easily be diminished through proper use and care. Water changes are primary with any treament but one aspect the hypo has over any other is it's ability to allow the use of nitrogen sorbant materials like Polyfilters and Purigen. If anything, it is a more advantageous regimen. It uses ablsolutely no poisons and is 100% effective when folowed through correctly. It's one major failing being the pH but being aware of that fact should be no suprise and quite easily counteracted through testing and buffering.

Sorry if that sounded like a rant, it was not directed at you or anyone in particular...

Is it possible my fully cycled double bio-wheel is really stepping up to the task here for me? I believe the following is the case, but I wanted to confirm it with you.

Biowheels are actually one of the best items you can use for a QT. Their increadibley fast aerobic nitrification work very well and easily catch's if the bacteria suffer a set back. I doubt your tanks has "cycled" in the truest sense but is definately ahead of the game and I think should progress without issue. You will still most likely need water changes though to some degree.

As I've been lowering the ppt count in the qt, has my bio-wheel been becoming less effective? In other words, do potential ammonia spikes become much more of a possibility now for me that the tank is stabilized in hypo mode, even with a fully cycled bio-wheel? It seems that most of the problems are happening when people go into the qt with no cycled media...

The reduced salinity is not what will affect the bacteria, it's the variations (drops) in pH. As long as temps remains constant and pH is dealt with effectively and promptly, the nitrification properties should not suffer much if at all.

In terms of having a cycled QT, you are 100% correct. Don't get me wrong, I know some may not be able to keep one going 24/7 and an established system may have no need for it. That said though, I see absolutely no excuse for for not preplanning when hobbyist are in the market for new fish. Quite honestly, all new aquisitions should go through the QT process, fish or otherwise.

Also, it seems like many are targeting 12ppt.... what is your reasoning for 14.?

Preference really, there is no real difference between 12 ppt and 14 ppt in terms of treatment effectiveness. If using a properly calibrated instrument for measuring the salinity, the "precautionary" step of lowering the salinity even further is unneccessary.

Steve, if you can direct me to a thread which covers some of this stuff in more detail, I would be happy to read to cut down on some of the questions you've probably been answering over and over..... I have read alot but always still more questions...

Ask away, I know of no such encompasing thread or article that can cover all the questions someone may have. If Nikki or one of the others do, I hope they will link to it. I am very confidant that your questions will be answered though, if not me then the other many knowledgable members here.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Hi Nikki,
Yes, I had read Terry's article earlier. I was just wondering what the science, if any, was behind targeting 12ppt instead of 14ppt. I'm sure there are numerous variations of the strategy/treatment, and I'm sure many hobbiests have developed a plan which has produced good results for them. I feel good about what Terry has written, and Steve has been very helpful.

Life has become much easier over the past 24 hrs as I've put a new refractometer to use and received the replacement probe for my Pinpoint ph monitor. Whew, I was beginning to feel like a water testing machine

This morning, the PB showed some clearly different physical characteristics on his body. I want to say they look like dark spots, but I don't want to be misleading.... I'll try and take a pic and post it later. The spots almost look like deeper blue spots spread out over the field of the lighter blue base coloring of the fish?? Maybe this is where the trophonts departed from? Respirations still seem relaxed, and he's flashing very casually from time to time. He's eating, but certainly not tearing up the place when I feed...

Jack

 

[parajack]

This is great Steve, thanks for providing just the right amount of info for me to digest as I work through this. I believe things are stabilizing somewhat. I threw out my old test kits and replaced them today. I was really suspicious about the NO3 and with the new kit (Hagen) I did show some.... about .04 or so with ph of 8.0. One thing that we haven't discussed is the relationship between ph and ammonia. After the 20% wc this eve, the NO3 was still .04 or so, but the ph was 8.1 vs 8.0 earlier. Wouldn't it be advantageous to keep the ph as low as is comfortable for the fish in the qt, and, by the way, what is this value? If this is the case, then I've missed it. The higher the ph, the less able the water is in absorbing or holding it? I know I'm probably making you laugh here, but here is the analogy which popped into my novice mind... It's kind of like the ability of the air to hold moisture... as the temp drops everything changes. As the ph climbs, everything changes, except its poison instead of rain.....

My first question is this: My makeup water was sitting all day at 13-14ppt, ph of 8.15-8.16. The qt was at 13-14ppt and 8.02-8.03. Both digitally controlled to 78 degrees. I'm thinking I should gradually tweak up the ph in the qt a bit. I check the parameters of both before my first 20% water change in full hypo mode. After I get done, I see the ph has stabilized at 8.00. So whats up with this? A couple of hours later, still at 7.99-8.00. I then buffered it up to 8.10. What am I missing here? It's probably normal during a water change and I just didn't know it....

My other question is the Hagen Ammonia test kit has 3 bottles. The instructions clearly have you adding 7 drops EACH to the 5ml sample. So I gotta ask, why is bottle #3 only 10mls volume while bottles #1 and #2 are 15 mls? This is not a real confidence builder when running this test, especially when things are so critical. Its hard to fathom how this cannot be an error of one sort or another.

Can I look at my Nitrite results and "work them in" to the NO3 results or should I absolutely look at them independently? Iow, my nitrites are consistently very low, but the ammonia result seems to really fluctuate with the ph. And also, If I miss a wc or two, who is going to be talking to me louder, the test results or the fish, and who is likely going to speak up first?

To optimize things, would you recommend supplementing with some nitrifing bacteria? If so, what brand do you recommend? What are the most common downsides of using this kind of supplement? I know I have the bio wheel and all, but I'm not the least bit confident that I'm not going to have some giant NO3 spike. Right now I hardly feel like I can look away from the tank for very long.. this mainly after running a NO3 test after the wc and coming up with the same result as before the change...

Anyway, the PB this eve has only a fraction of the spots he had a couple of nights ago and seems well... a definite improvement. The Flame A is definitely dealing with a mild sunburn of ick also, but doesn't seem bothered.. I hate to say this, but I think he is used to it, just maybe not the type of infestation that the PB brewed up for him....

Jack

 

[steve-s]

One thing that we haven't discussed is the relationship between ph and ammonia. After the 20% wc this eve, the NO3 was still .04 or so, but the ph was 8.1 vs 8.0 earlier. Wouldn't it be advantageous to keep the ph as low as is comfortable for the fish in the qt, and, by the way, what is this value? If this is the case, then I've missed it.

If the ammonia is low-undetectable, there is no reason not to keep a normal pH value (8.1-8.3). pH can make ammonia (NH3-) more toxic if the pH becomes relatively high but also depends on the level of ammonia itself. Ammonia toxicity can climb but typically at much higher pH values. The problem with low pH is NH4+ becomes an issue but at those levels you also risk acidosis. You are best keeping pH relative to a proper marine environment and dealing with the ammonia itself. Any reading above 0.1 mg/l should prompt an immediate water change. With the pH reading you are reporting thus far, I do not believe this to be an issue. (If I explained that wierdly, someone please correct it).

Is the ammonia kit you are using Nessler or Salicate based?

Do you have easy access to an Ammonia alert Badge (Seachem)?

My first question is this: My makeup water was sitting all day at 13-14ppt, ph of 8.15-8.16. The qt was at 13-14ppt and 8.02-8.03. Both digitally controlled to 78 degrees. I'm thinking I should gradually tweak up the ph in the qt a bit. I check the parameters of both before my first 20% water change in full hypo mode. After I get done, I see the ph has stabilized at 8.00. So whats up with this? A couple of hours later, still at 7.99-8.00. I then buffered it up to 8.10. What am I missing here? It's probably normal during a water change and I just didn't know it....

The small water volume relative to the fish excretions/respiration is what's affecting the pH. 7.99-8.0 is actually a fine level as long as it does not dip much lower than that and remains stable. Is the tank being properly aerated and is the room the tank is in proper outside ventilated?

My other question is the Hagen Ammonia test kit has 3 bottles. The instructions clearly have you adding 7 drops EACH to the 5ml sample. So I gotta ask, why is bottle #3 only 10mls volume while bottles #1 and #2 are 15 mls? This is not a real confidence builder when running this test, especially when things are so critical. Its hard to fathom how this cannot be an error of one sort or another.

From Hagens website.....

Same number of drops - different bottle sizes?

Q:Your instructions say to use 5 drops of each reagent but one bottle is 10 mL and the other is 16 mL. Something doesn't seem right--one's going to run empty before the other. Are the instructions correct?

A:The instructions are correct. The reagents have a different density causing the actual measured drops to be different sizes. The bottles should run empty at the same time and provide the amount of tests shown on the labels.

Can I look at my Nitrite results and "work them in" to the NO3 results or should I absolutely look at them independently? Iow, my nitrites are consistently very low, but the ammonia result seems to really fluctuate with the ph. And also, If I miss a wc or two, who is going to be talking to me louder, the test results or the fish, and who is likely going to speak up first?

Watch each level independantly as each can affect the fish adversely based on the reading taken. Ammonia and nitrite being your biggest concerns. The damage caused by ammonia to the gills is generally long term/permanent (hyperplasia) and nitrite actually inhibits the fish's ability to gain O2 from the water and causes suffication (hypoxia). Nitrate is much less a concern but should still be kept low to prevent opportunistic bacterial issues.

If you are testing daily, the test kits should help before the fish show signs of an issue. Those would be rapid darting, color loss, surface gulping, rapid gilling, enflamed gills and irregular swimming.

To optimize things, would you recommend supplementing with some nitrifing bacteria? If so, what brand do you recommend? What are the most common downsides of using this kind of supplement? I know I have the bio wheel and all, but I'm not the least bit confident that I'm not going to have some giant NO3 spike. Right now I hardly feel like I can look away from the tank for very long.. this mainly after running a NO3 test after the wc and coming up with the same result as before the change...

I honestly woudn't bother with these things. If your test kits are reading accurately, then I am fairly confidant the biowheel is already doing it's job. Given the fish load vs available water volume, ammonia would have been evident rather quickly otherwise given the respiration of fish and their excressions via the gills.

There are no downsides to using the products really except the waste of money. If you use any of them, I would suggest Bio Spira marine. As I said though I truely don't recommend any, I don't believe the science behind their manufacture/application has been properly perfected.

As far as the NO3 is concerned, the QT is not set up to deal with it naturally and the colonies of nitrifying bacteria while still there are not in sufficient number to have any effect. Your only means of control here will be water changes.

Cheers
Steve