Fish Moving Time Please!

[parajack]

I agree that I'd like to see the fish back at full salinity for at least 10 days to two weeks before going back to the display. I guess I need to accept the fact that the qt, even when cycled has no lr, no sump, minimal water volume, no dsb or any other filtration. I suppose it may never really stablize to the point where I can really walk away from it. I'm a bit leary of leaving the fish in the qt when I go to extended training. Hopefully the NO2 will come down enough to allow me to leave the fish in the qt until mid December. I suppose I could get my wife and 17 yr old to take turns changing water:lol: If there are any problems, the PB will undoubtedly show them to me... as you say like a canary in a coal mine I don't know if its the Selcon or what, but he is really getting stronger and more vibrant. I know we've been over this but just to clarify, should the food be supplemented with one or the other at every feeding?

<<Fin damage will generally heal in a few days with a healthy immune system, clean tank and no bone loss. Soft tissue and cartilage will regenerate fully as a rule, bone loss will not.

We'll he still has left over something or other on his pectorial (sp?) fins. It's mild and going away, but it seems like it's only healing at the same rate all his body tissue ick damage spots are healing. This is one issue which is very unclear to me, as at one point, between two of his worst ick spot outbreaks, his body was beautifully clean, and his fins were all clear and unmarked.... I will never understand this. :?: He hasn't had clean/clear pec fins since the last cycle abated 3+ weeks ago, but clearly his overall health and vitality has improved.... probably in better shape than when I brought him home from lfs....

Don't ask me how its going to work exactly, but when I build up my fish room, I'm going to have plumbing set up to make the whole qt thing a breeze. RO/DI holding -- makeup water tank -- qt --display -- sump -- frag -- refug x2 -- All connected. All I want to do is open/close valves. I know there is a way to properly isolate the qt, but still have it connected for feed from display and makeup water.... Finally ran out of excuses and drilled my first two holes in my 320 tonight :lol: thats a thread for another day
Jack

 

[steve-s]

With suppliments, I prefer to use only one type per feeding, you'll get better sorbtion that way. Especially if you consider the amount of moisture there to begin with. What I do is thaw the food in the fridge with tank water which will not strip the vitamin content nearly as much as with RO. Drain the water after a few hours and mash up the food (if gel bound) and add the vitamin/immune booster. Mix, place back in the fridge and let sit overnight. Feed the fish as normal.

When you get that fish room set up, please be sure to post some details. I hope you take some photo's throughout the process as well.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

A couple of times when I add food soaked with Selcon, I thought I've noticed a different sound from the sponge filter bubbles. Last night it was so obvious that I had to ask. It seems as if the bubbles are getting larger after the supplement is added, and therefore changing the sound of the filters considerably to the point where I can even here them in the other room. Anyway, I was amazed that such a small amount of Selcon could have such an affect on the 29g qt. What's going on here? The extra noise seems to subside in less than an hour or so...

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the visible sign of a cycled tank is widespread algae growth. Now that I have brown and green algae pretty much all around my qt, how much of it should I clean off? I'm thinking I should just let it grow, or perhaps just clean one panel at each water change? The algae is clearly stabilizing my nitrite / nitrate level so I want to leave it mostly alone right:?: I know there is a balance with having too much... what would you do?

These water tests are killing me :badgrin: I mean you basically need to sit down some where and read every stupid word - even the smallest text in the note of the fine print. The idea that you could just read the instructions for completing the test, and then do the test. Gee, how naive can a person be. So I find out tonight that the Nitrate reading is only accurate when Nitrite is <.1 That would have been nice to know while the tank was cycling and Nitrites were slowly dropping

My NO2 is now less than .1, and NO3 is about 5ppm. NH3 is undetectable and PB is looking marvelous. I'm going to start raising salinity at the end of next week but still haven't decided when I'll reintroduce fish to display. Display has been fallow for 34 days... I like the idea of 2 weeks of time back at full salintiy before going back to display. Want to be sure...
Jack

 

[steve-s]

The main reason for suggesting Selcon was the HUFA which is the same thing that's causing what your seeing. It's nothing to worry about. If you added a small amount to the main tank, your skimmer would stop working properly for a short period as well. One of the reasons some prefer standard vitamin additives like Zoe or Vita chem but they are not in the same league as Selcon or similar types.

Clean some of the algae away as you do water changes, keep it from getting unsightly. Some is fine but excessive will cause problems.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

Just wanted to follow up on that Beta Glucan in Ocean Nutritionj I mentioned on page 3 of this thread.... Here was their reply.

Steve,
in response to your question regarding beta gluton. Beta gluton is found in
all our flake foods and frozen as well. The reason it is not listed as an
ingredient on all our labels is we are not required by the AAFCO the
governing body on labels to list that item as an ingredient. Actual
percentages will vary from product to product. I hope this answers your
question.

Paul Maxwell
National Sales Manager
Ocean Nutrition
801-956-0662 ext 136
[email protected]

How's things going otherwise...?

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Steve,
Things are going well. I've gone to every third day on changes now but parameters seem to remain more or less unchanged whether I change water or not. PB is doing great but still has a few light inconsistancies in his pectorials. PJC is like new except for the long string like piece of the dorsal fin is misssing. I still don't understand how the PJC could recover from such a shredded condition so quickly while the PB still has a bit of imperfection on his pectorials.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[steve-s]

I still don't understand how the PJC could recover from such a shredded condition so quickly while the PB still has a bit of imperfection on his pectorials.

More than likely the thickness of the fin in question. PJC being quit thin while the PB is a bit more meaty. The bone density on the PB is also thicker. Actual bone damage rarely if ever heals back to a "normal" appearance, just the soft tissues.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Hi Steve,
I've started to raise salinity. I made up .025 water and am changing 20% each day until I reach .025-.026. Then I plan on cycling some disiplay water into the qt before I reintroduce fish. It's been 50 days since I first moved fish into the qt, and 40 days since the last spots on the PB disappeared. I'm going to move the PJCs, the Firefish, the Percula, and the Chromis back into the display, and keep the PB in the qt for awhile longer. I'm still not 100% convinced that he still doesn't have something very minor going on. He shows blemishes on his pectorials sometimes, and seemed to have some very mild dark spots on his side for a day or two but now gone. Maybe the fish can only achieve a certain level of health in its present environment? Or maybe he's perfectly fine and I just need to accept him as he is
Happy Holidays!
Jack

 

[steve-s]

I'm still not 100% convinced that he still doesn't have something very minor going on. He shows blemishes on his pectorials sometimes, and seemed to have some very mild dark spots on his side for a day or two but now gone. Maybe the fish can only achieve a certain level of health in its present environment? Or maybe he's perfectly fine and I just need to accept him as he is

I would hesitate to move the fish back until you 100% positive on all fish within that system. It could very well be simple depigmentation or in fact nothing. Given the nature and sensitivity of Powder Blue's, just about anything could cause this. If it's localized to a definable area and always the same it would bare further observation. Stress can also cause color changes in fish so if sporadic and splotchy, I would lean towards that.

This is why it's best to give the 2 week time frame after treatment to be sure nothing else arises. Your plan otherwise sounds fair but I would add the fish back a little slower considering your display tanks size. I would do the first two, wait a week then the second set, wait a week and then the blue. Might seem like an awfully long time but you don't want to overtax the biofilter and cause new issues.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Well making the last water change from 31ppt to 34ppt I upset the balance somehow because the PB became notably agitated. The only thing I did was to add buffer trying to raise the ph from 8.15 to 8.25 trying to match the display parameters so I can move a couple of fish tomorrow. I'm certain I don't understand the chemistry like I wish I did. Seems a small amount of the buffer went waaaaaay further when the salinity was at 14ppt. I added double the normal amount I usually add (1/2tsp instead of 1/4tsp) and only achieved a .05 rise in ph. About that time I noticed the PB seeming to be stressed out. I checked the alkalinity and it was fine but I went ahead and did another 20% wc with fresh makeup water and it seems to have settled the PB down..... I'm really not sure what the heck is going on here. The PB has been showing the best colors and clearest pectorials since I've had him..... this since I started raising the salinity back up to normal....Maybe all of the water changing this week is taking a toll on him....
Jack

 

[NaH2O]

Hang in there Jack. You've done such a great job and shown incredible patience through this. I'm not sure what may have caused the tang to stress like that (did the other fish show signs of stress?). Were you adjusting the pH of the water change water, to meet your value, prior to the change? Were you adding the buffer directly to the tank or mixing it in a separate container then adding it to the tank? Just tossing some thoughts out on this one, as I really don't know.

 

[parajack]

Hi Nikki,
My pattern has been to add a 1/4tsp of buffer to a large glass of ro water then add it slowly to the bio wheel filter where it mixes very well before entering the qt. The other fish are fine as they have always been through this whole adventure. Still some discontent between the two pjcs but that is it. At this point with the PB I need to determine whether the black marks on his body are just variations in the pigment, or some other problem. They look just like frekles (sp?) on his skin at times, and other times they are non existant. They seem to come and go depending on the lighting and perhaps the stress level. The fish looks beautiful and eats great and seems otherwise perfect.... I'm not moving him back to the display yet, but at some point soon I need to decide whether to further treat him or not....
Jack

 

[steve-s]

The freckles could be a trick of the light, scaring or unfortunately the pest returning however unlikely (touch wood it isn't). Either way, another week in the QT would tell you one way or the other.

I doubt this is related but you are not doing the biowheel any favors by adding fresh water through it. The sudden shift in salinity and spike in the pH will kill a good many of the bacteria. If there is no powerhead in the QT, add the new buffered water where the HOB empties out into the tank instead. It will still help mix it but not affect the efficacy of the biofilter.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

Thanks Steve,
I've been adding water through the biowheel all along. I'm sure I wasn't doing myself any favors getting the tank cycled. I knew how strong the buffer is... you think I'd put two and two together.....:shock:
Jack

 

[My2heartboys]

PWC's ??????? Not familiar with this abbreviation--what does it mean other than panic water changes.

Also something I discovered, even though I did not know that it was ick at the time causing it, I found that putting an air hose on an air pump and then sticking the hose (with NO diffuser) into the tank and have a moderate stream of bubbles going--it can really ease their breathing. You don't want micro bubbles but dime to quarter sized bubbles.

Anne

 

[NaH2O]

Anne - I read it as partial water changes.....not 100% on that though.

 

[parajack]

Well just when I thought things were getting better for the Powder Blue, he's taken a huge turn for the worse I wouldn't be surprised If I awake to a carcass in the morning. I thought I had everything in good shape when I left for training in Seattle on Sunday nite. All fish looked really good, all water paramters were great, qt tank is cycled nicely... everything seemed fine. I left 3 fish in the qt and moved the other 3 to the display. I get a call on tuesday nite that the PB doesn't look so good. My son says it looks like ick again but not sure... The report Wednesday nite is that the PB has little "white 1/4" long stringy things all over his body". Thursday nite they say he looks better but not eating well and covered with white stuff. I get home friday afternoon, and the fish looks terrible. I wish I could be sure but it doesn't really look like ick to me. The spots or more varied and sized diffferently, and it looks like scale or velvety stuff on him. He has some strings of slime I think hanging off him in a few places. He's not eating at all and just swims around the tank aimlessly. I moved a bucket on the shelf below him and he darted across the tank making a move like I've never seen him do before. Eyes are clear but covered with whatever it is. This is not the fish I left Sunday nite.
My observations:

The actual colors of the PB are the most vibrant by far that they've ever been. It's like he had a new paint job. No lite faded areas on him - just vivid blues and dark blacks and bright whites and yellows.....Night and day difference from 5 days earlier...

There is much more algae around the tank and on the pvc fittings than there has been.... I suspect this is because the PB has stopped browsing...

There is what looks like the same stuff that's on the fish all over the floor of the tank. Small dots and pieces of white something or other....

Nitrites are zero, nitrates are <5, NH3/NH4 is almost unreadable, alkalinity is 5, ph is 8.20, temp is 78. I've raised the ph .10 over the past 10 days or so but the tank is very steady....

What I've done.... Well I looked around for some Maracyn II but didn't have any luck so far. Tonight after doing a water change, I decided that I better take a shot at something thinking at this point I'm probably going to lose the fish anyway. I threw the other PJC and the Firefish into the display, removed the carbon from the qt, covered much of the remaining glass of the qt for privacy, and then began a Formalite II treatment (Formaldehyde 15%, Copper and Nickle Sulfate) That's all I had on hand....

I tried to take a pic but it gets blurry when it's close enough to show anything. I can't / don't believe it's ick. The qt was never above 14ppt for 48 days. Less than 4 days after .025-026/34ppt the fish is a total wreck, and I mean a completely different and much more serious wreck than when he was peppered with ick.

I think over the course of this thread I've mentioned several times that the pectorials never really cleared up, and that the fish never really stopped flashing completely.

I hope this thread doesn't have to end this way.......
Let me know your thoughts when you get a chance
Jack

 

[steve-s]

Jack,

Take a look at this thread and see if it looks in any way similar, sounds like a worm problem.

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11044

Did the Formalite abate any of the symptoms at all? My guess is a little but not significantly. Be sure you monitor the pH closely.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

Also something I discovered, even though I did not know that it was ick at the time causing it, I found that putting an air hose on an air pump and then sticking the hose (with NO diffuser) into the tank and have a moderate stream of bubbles going--it can really ease their breathing. You don't want micro bubbles but dime to quarter sized bubbles.

The same can be accomplished by directing water flow at the surface of the water via return line or powerhead. Gas exchange largely occurs at the waters surface so the surface tension needs to be broken in order for that to be accomplished. A single point such as a "bubbler" will be less efficient than creating ripples along the length of the tanks surface.

Cheers
Steve

 

[parajack]

PB died over night which wasn't a big surprise to me given his condition. The white particles were actually spread in a large concentration around him on the floor of the tank. When I looked closely it really doesn't look like ick at all but who knows for sure. The most frustrating thing about this is not knowing what happened so that maybe I can take better measures to address this if it happens again. Otherwise this whole lousy experience is all for nothing. I have a water sample which is full of the infectious material, as well as the fish frozen. Is there anyway I can get an analysis? Some place I can send a water sample? It would be worth allot to me to be able to know what the infection was. I realize I probably finished him off with the Formalite treatment, even though I followed the directions exactly. The fish never did show any visible breathing stress or difficulty. The tank was oxygenated very well with the two sponge filters..
Jack