aarontangs
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The salinity of nsw by land is always more then offshore.If u would go about 5 miles off land the salinity start to lower.
Going Natural
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ethanriley
Well-known member
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Boomer thanks for your contribution. Got any sources for that information I would very curious to research it further.
I agree with this statement, but it even varies close to shore based on several contributing factors including flow, runoff, affluents and depth of water
ethanriley
Well-known member
Boomer got any information on algae spores this is one of my greatest curiosities going natural. It stands to reason that if I harvest water from say a sheltered lagoon versus one of rocky points that the concentration of algae spores and nitrates will also differ significantly along with the salinity. Incidentally, I have noticed another bonus from going natural macroalgaes that were previously not faring well in my tank are beginning to gorw on at least one piece of rock.
Boomer, I'm glad you were paying attention. But I still stand by my statements. Of course I could be wrong. Ok here goes. About bald eagles cranes and robins, in England. They can't fly that far over the ocean.
(these are my theorys of course) Timber wolves in Iowa, They probably were there until we killed them all. (There were planty of bears in Manhatten) Lampreys in lake superior, I don't know about that one. Why are there no CBBs in the Caribbean I have no Idea and I think they should be there. I know there were no CBBs 30 million years ago, I did not see any around then. :lol: But I also know that much sooner than that the oceans were a lot different than they are now, but disregarding that, how did moorish Idols populate Hawaii and Tahiti which is about 3000 miles apart (aprox, I didn't get out the map) through some of the deepest ocean on earth? Copperbands live in Japan, Australia the East Indies and the East coast of Africa. Long nose butterflies are all over the place, from Tahiti, Hawaii, The Red Sea, east Africa, The Indian Ocean and the west coast of North America, (of course I looked it up, I can't remember that)
Anyway, my point is (and this is just conjecture now) why are some fish able to navigate thousands of miles of open ocean to populate the area, and fish about the same size with the same temperment eating the same thing can't?
Now for the plankton. I think the question was "what should you do to NSW before you put it in a tank?" Here in New York the water is teeming with life, for whatever reason, so the water should be strained, bleached filtered, whatever but the water in the tropics, weather it is because the reef ate all the plankton or the whales ate it or whatever the reason, the water there is freeier of plankton, floating substances and probably pollution that the NSW needs no, or very little manipulation before it is used.
Where do I get my information? It is all personal observations from diving for 40 years in many parts of the world. Of course I am not saying I am Jaques Cousteau or anything But I have dove in the South Pacific, Hawaii, Mediteranian, Bahamas, most (or I should say many) Caribbean Islands and a few hundred times in New York. The water here in NY is filled with life, If you hold up a glass of it it looks like you just hatched brine shrimp. In the tropics you will see nothing. I know this because everywhere I go I do this, (I know I'm wierd)
Anyway Boomer, I appreciate you questioning me about this because I think about it all the time :idea: There maybe a very simple explanation and I wonder if you took some CBBs and moorish Idols and released them in the Caribbean if they would thrive. Take some sea fans to Bora Bora. I think that there may be something different in various places that limits what types of fish live there besides the obvious things like food and predators. Many corals can't live near each other.
Boomer Have a Greeeeeeat day because now I am going waaaaay off course.
Take care.
Paul
Bora Bora.
(these are my theorys of course) Timber wolves in Iowa, They probably were there until we killed them all. (There were planty of bears in Manhatten) Lampreys in lake superior, I don't know about that one. Why are there no CBBs in the Caribbean I have no Idea and I think they should be there. I know there were no CBBs 30 million years ago, I did not see any around then. :lol: But I also know that much sooner than that the oceans were a lot different than they are now, but disregarding that, how did moorish Idols populate Hawaii and Tahiti which is about 3000 miles apart (aprox, I didn't get out the map) through some of the deepest ocean on earth? Copperbands live in Japan, Australia the East Indies and the East coast of Africa. Long nose butterflies are all over the place, from Tahiti, Hawaii, The Red Sea, east Africa, The Indian Ocean and the west coast of North America, (of course I looked it up, I can't remember that)
Anyway, my point is (and this is just conjecture now) why are some fish able to navigate thousands of miles of open ocean to populate the area, and fish about the same size with the same temperment eating the same thing can't?
Now for the plankton. I think the question was "what should you do to NSW before you put it in a tank?" Here in New York the water is teeming with life, for whatever reason, so the water should be strained, bleached filtered, whatever but the water in the tropics, weather it is because the reef ate all the plankton or the whales ate it or whatever the reason, the water there is freeier of plankton, floating substances and probably pollution that the NSW needs no, or very little manipulation before it is used.
Where do I get my information? It is all personal observations from diving for 40 years in many parts of the world. Of course I am not saying I am Jaques Cousteau or anything
But I have dove in the South Pacific, Hawaii, Mediteranian, Bahamas, most (or I should say many) Caribbean Islands and a few hundred times in New York. The water here in NY is filled with life, If you hold up a glass of it it looks like you just hatched brine shrimp. In the tropics you will see nothing. I know this because everywhere I go I do this, (I know I'm wierd)Anyway Boomer, I appreciate you questioning me about this because I think about it all the time :idea: There maybe a very simple explanation and I wonder if you took some CBBs and moorish Idols and released them in the Caribbean if they would thrive. Take some sea fans to Bora Bora. I think that there may be something different in various places that limits what types of fish live there besides the obvious things like food and predators. Many corals can't live near each other.
Boomer Have a Greeeeeeat day because now I am going waaaaay off course.
Take care.
Paul
Bora Bora.
Boomer
Well-known member
Andrew
On spores no. Here is something for you on plankton. Try not to take this and run with it. Plankton counts have many varibles and cycles
http://www.gma.org/herring/biology/distribution/comparing_oceans.asp
It reads like light, blue less ---> green---->red more
Aaron & Andrew
The salinity of nsw by land is always more then offshore. If u would go about 5 miles off land the salinity start to lower.
Where on earth do you guys get this from:shock: The salinity is lower near shore, due to rivers and surface runoff. Par maybe a place here or there. Get out a map of the worlds ocean salinity I'm looking at two of them in some of my world ocean atlas's. Here have a look;
http://images.google.com/images?q=salinity%20of%20the%20oceans&btnG=Search&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi
Paul
They can't fly that far over the ocean
Says who, based on what ? Get out a map of Alaska and look at the Bering Straits to Russia. It is just a short jump, fly all the way to France and a short jump across the English Channel. Not an issue for an Eagle at all. Wolves, lets go a step farther, you took the bait. Why are there no wolves in South America.
Answer to may of those question is that there is no need to move to some other piece of the world or a barrier they wish not to conquer. It is not just CCB, look at the complete line of butterfly's and angle fish. Are there any Bule Fin Tuna in the Atlanic Ocean ? Marlin, how come they are not in the Pacific ? Most zoogeography is controlled by barriers.
the water there is freeier of plankton, floating substances and probably pollution that the NSW needs no, or very little manipulation before it is used.
I agree to that
The water here in NY is filled with life,
Of coruse it is but there is very little diversity. Do you think there are more species of fish, plankton, etc, in NY, than on a tropical coral reef. How come not, when NY is filled with all that life ?
In the tropics you will see nothing.
That depends on what day, time of year, time of day it is. Reefs explode at night with plankton. How do you thinks all those filter feeders eat ?
how did moorish Idols populate Hawaii and Tahiti which is about 3000 miles apart
Think Darwin and the Galapagos Islands
I wonder if you took some CBBs and moorish Idols and released them in the Caribbean if they would thrive.
I see no reason why not, if released on a coral reef
On spores no. Here is something for you on plankton. Try not to take this and run with it. Plankton counts have many varibles and cycles
http://www.gma.org/herring/biology/distribution/comparing_oceans.asp
It reads like light, blue less ---> green---->red more
Aaron & Andrew
The salinity of nsw by land is always more then offshore. If u would go about 5 miles off land the salinity start to lower.
Where on earth do you guys get this from:shock: The salinity is lower near shore, due to rivers and surface runoff. Par maybe a place here or there. Get out a map of the worlds ocean salinity
I'm looking at two of them in some of my world ocean atlas's. Here have a look;http://images.google.com/images?q=salinity%20of%20the%20oceans&btnG=Search&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi
Paul
They can't fly that far over the ocean
Says who, based on what ? Get out a map of Alaska and look at the Bering Straits to Russia. It is just a short jump, fly all the way to France and a short jump across the English Channel. Not an issue for an Eagle at all. Wolves, lets go a step farther, you took the bait. Why are there no wolves in South America.
Answer to may of those question is that there is no need to move to some other piece of the world or a barrier they wish not to conquer. It is not just CCB, look at the complete line of butterfly's and angle fish. Are there any Bule Fin Tuna in the Atlanic Ocean ? Marlin, how come they are not in the Pacific ? Most zoogeography is controlled by barriers.
the water there is freeier of plankton, floating substances and probably pollution that the NSW needs no, or very little manipulation before it is used.
I agree to that
The water here in NY is filled with life,
Of coruse it is but there is very little diversity. Do you think there are more species of fish, plankton, etc, in NY, than on a tropical coral reef. How come not, when NY is filled with all that life ?
In the tropics you will see nothing.
That depends on what day, time of year, time of day it is. Reefs explode at night with plankton. How do you thinks all those filter feeders eat ?
how did moorish Idols populate Hawaii and Tahiti which is about 3000 miles apart
Think Darwin and the Galapagos Islands
I wonder if you took some CBBs and moorish Idols and released them in the Caribbean if they would thrive.
I see no reason why not, if released on a coral reef
wrightme43
Well-known member
Now this a subject I have just enough info to get myself into trouble with.
Most fish have pelargic (sp?) larvae, the ocean currents move them in certain directions, and certain speeds. In the case of a reef fish, to move as adult, it would need to have a constant reef, to move along feeding. Even then it would be very hard due to territorial behavior on the reef.
Most fish have pelargic (sp?) larvae, the ocean currents move them in certain directions, and certain speeds. In the case of a reef fish, to move as adult, it would need to have a constant reef, to move along feeding. Even then it would be very hard due to territorial behavior on the reef.
ethanriley
Well-known member
Boomer I didn't say Aron was right in fact I pointed out that land runoff, affluents etc, rivers ( I didn't point that one out) do affect salinity.
From my own research I can tell you salinity is less affected by proximity to land than any other factor, anybody ever heard of salt marshes immense concentrations of salt precipitated by what else evaporation rates. Other than that Boomer thanks for the hours of information. You guys may not see me on the forum as I will be studying again LOL.:badgrin: Boomer one final thing there are wolves in all of the Americas and Africa and Asia
ethanriley
Well-known member
As far as species distribution please remember we unfortunately throughout the centuries have contributed negatively in most cases to some weird species distribution. Remember there are now lion fish swimming around in the Florida Keys. I have read of fisherman "bycatch" stories in the Pacific also causing peculiar species distribution and lets not forget the wonderful snakehead
ethanriley
Well-known member
I meant through ingestion of bacteria cotaining AA's which would not be present in artificial saltwater. Thanks for the clarfication Nikki you made a cloudy point very clear
Unfortunately, Nikki I will have to beg Krish to take some as I don't have a digital camera. He does already have some before photos. Don't laugh though my tank does look like a mad scientist experiment.:badgrin: As far lighting upgrades I didn't make any and in truth i don't have the proper lighting for SPS as Mr. Pockell pointed out. I have four 96 watt compact flourescents over a thirty long two of the bulbs are 10,000K and two are actinics. Some of my corals are only inches from the surface, but I guess it still isn't enough light. I understand your idea on the more frequent water changes as I have increased the water changes since going natural so that I don't have to supplement, again a fine observation.
I appreciate how you are disecting my orignal premises it helps to have the observations clarified. There really is alot to wrap ones brain around in this thread especially with what Boomer and Paul have been adding:razz:
ethanriley
Well-known member
Nikki, How I got off on the affects of amino acid transfer is that some aquarists even with the "correct lighting" experience "inexplicable" color change in their corals. I believe this to be as a result of amino acids available in natural sea water that are no longer available in a closed system utilizing artificial sea water and as a result symbiotic bacteria and or dinoflagallates are no longer able to produce the same color spectrum they would produce in the wild hence the change of color in a coral over time. Supplementing the coral in this case then becomes an incorrect term what you are trying to supplement is the symbiotic bacteria I think....
Krish
RF STAFF
No need to beg...Have you ever heard of anyone ever having to beg me for anything? I only didn't post any because you told me not to
Here's the best photo I have of Andrew's tank after the take down of the tank to clean off the rocks, stirr the sand bed, add the refugium lighting, re-aquascaping, addition of all new 96 watt pc bulbs and the 48 hr treatment of chemi clean. So the only thing I don't have a photo of is when you started using NSW, but I can come and take some whenever...Atleast they can get an idea of the coloration of the corals you were talking about and the coraline growth.
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ethanriley
Well-known member
Dude Thanks! Man seeing it I can't even believe the changes sice going natural. Krish can you remeber the date of this picture I know when I did the first natural change
ethanriley
Well-known member
For you to appreciate the color differences I will have to shoot some of the corals close up. Also the tank was still being reset as the thalassia in this picture is still floating. Seeing it tough makes me want to add the halides like Kevin suggested.
Krish
RF STAFF
It was taken 2 1/2 weeks ago...
ethanriley
Well-known member
Ok putting this in perspective I did the first water change a week after this picture was taken and have taken out ten gallons and then five gallons twice since then
Krish
RF STAFF
Here's the closeup
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Good morning Boomer, Well we agree on a few things. I know about the salinity being lower near land, I have to add salt when I collect it all the time, sometimes it is practically fresh water (don't get crazy now)
Wolves in Sout America? I didn't know they were not there but I also don't know why they never walked there, the Panama Canal is man made and you could walk from Canada to South America. There are no barriers except heat.
I think the differences we are having with plankton is that I am not talking about "plankton" per say. I know the world has plankton populations that you can see on your map. But "Plankton" is a small shrimp, I am talking about "life" in general. In northern waters there are numerous "life forms" (sounds like Star Trek) but you know what I mean. Just hold up some of the water in the north, I can send you some, it is filled with copepods, worms, and many crustacean fry. With your naked eye you can see all this life swimming. It is not technically plankton but it is still living organic material. This comes from the upwelling of currents up north and it is why all the worlds fisheries are here in the north and there are no massive fishing fleets in the tropics. I also agree that in the north we have less diversity of fish. We have more fish but much less diversity. Here for example in NY when I dive I see a lot of fish, and the visability underwater is measured in a couple of feet or sometimes inches. In the tropics, I of course see fish but I can see 300'.
I also know about the Galapagos Islands. It is quite a swim and obviousely fish can get there, but that is my point, why diden't more types of fish get to more places in the million or so years that they have been there?
Eagles I have no clue about.
Boomer, I am not argueing with you. I am just thinking why a fish like a CBB did not make it to the Caribbean or Tahiti for that reason which is very close to their range. I don't know if there are any CBBs in Tahiti but I saw a lot of long nose butterflys but no copperbands, and they are almost the same fish.
And Boomer, I agree a CBB should live in the Caribbean, but I am not sure, it is just a theory, I am not set in stone on this. I didn't say there was something preventing these fish from occupying all areas with the same conditions, I asked why they were not there.
I'm still lost with the eagles though and maybe wolves are lazy.:badgrin:
Anyway Boomer, Have a great day. I am going to collect some plankton.
Paul
Wolves in Sout America? I didn't know they were not there but I also don't know why they never walked there, the Panama Canal is man made and you could walk from Canada to South America. There are no barriers except heat.
I think the differences we are having with plankton is that I am not talking about "plankton" per say. I know the world has plankton populations that you can see on your map. But "Plankton" is a small shrimp, I am talking about "life" in general. In northern waters there are numerous "life forms" (sounds like Star Trek) but you know what I mean. Just hold up some of the water in the north, I can send you some, it is filled with copepods, worms, and many crustacean fry. With your naked eye you can see all this life swimming. It is not technically plankton but it is still living organic material. This comes from the upwelling of currents up north and it is why all the worlds fisheries are here in the north and there are no massive fishing fleets in the tropics. I also agree that in the north we have less diversity of fish. We have more fish but much less diversity. Here for example in NY when I dive I see a lot of fish, and the visability underwater is measured in a couple of feet or sometimes inches. In the tropics, I of course see fish but I can see 300'.
I also know about the Galapagos Islands. It is quite a swim and obviousely fish can get there, but that is my point, why diden't more types of fish get to more places in the million or so years that they have been there?
Eagles I have no clue about.
Boomer, I am not argueing with you. I am just thinking why a fish like a CBB did not make it to the Caribbean or Tahiti for that reason which is very close to their range. I don't know if there are any CBBs in Tahiti but I saw a lot of long nose butterflys but no copperbands, and they are almost the same fish.
And Boomer, I agree a CBB should live in the Caribbean, but I am not sure, it is just a theory, I am not set in stone on this. I didn't say there was something preventing these fish from occupying all areas with the same conditions, I asked why they were not there.
I'm still lost with the eagles though and maybe wolves are lazy.:badgrin:
Anyway Boomer, Have a great day. I am going to collect some plankton.
Paul
NaH2O
Well-known member
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- Jan 25, 2004
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krish75 said:
Well, this helps explain things a bit, in my mind. Not only are you doing more frequent water changes, but new bulbs in the picture. How old were the bulbs you replaced? Trying not to get off topic, just curious....if you were changing them, they must have been aged.
Paul B said:
Paul - how long do you think this life lives in the reef tank environment? The reason I'm asking, is I would not think the environment of our tanks could support these organisms, and water quality would degrade.
wave98
Pearly
NaH2O said:
I am particularly interested in this part. I want to do some collecting to improve the bio-diversity in my tanks. I'm curious about where to collect so that the life I bring home, IS able to thrive in the "closed" environment.
Thanks, > Barry
All corals are imprinted with all pigments in the genetics. Dominate colors come to the fore front based on what color waves the coral is being bombarded with. Ethan take a look at a thread we did in the "Great threads forum" called lets talk about lighting you should get all the info you are looking for. As per AA"s you are looking at the picture here in to small a scope. From what you are saying its like AA's are only imported. You have to remember that AA's are most produced by the same critters that run rampant in our tanks, mostly bacteria, but also the zoox and even the corals to a point.
AA's are like the candy of the reefs, every thing needs them and wants them but the winner by far is the microfuana, from thier its up the chain. You are not going to be able to introduce AA's into your tank unbound, even if you pour it into the tank, they are gone in seconds.
On NSW the only pro I can see is possibly microbes, but even then unless you are collecting from the same place as the coral comes from and at different times of the day your just going down the dominance route anyway. I can see collecting in the Bahamas offshore, but for the most of us thier are to many bad things in the water, and not just pollution but organisms and microbes from a completely different eco system, to me that seems to be more of a role of a dice kind of thing.
Mike
