Guide to fraging RTBA

[liveforphysics]

Marinetang- According to a few different good books, anemones only go into bubble tip mode when they are stressed or in a defensive mode.

Finn- I completely belive that pulling it out on a cutting board and cutting it like a pie into 4 pieces would work perfect. I belive the main thing is that water quality is right.

Spongebob- I dont belive the clown is hurting them any, but he has been grabbing the clones in his mouth and moving them around the tank. Its really cute, and I wish i had a camera that took videos so I could show it.


I will take some update pics of how the clones are doing if anyone is interested. They are all healing nicely all ready, and I think I could likely cut a few of the clones in half allready and be fine, but I'm going to let them relax and heal for while.

 

[MarineTeng]

ok good to know about the bubbles, a shame though, i wonder if that affects growth rates and if certain tank mates (threats perhaps) make them bubble tipped, i've always read from other people it's unknown, what books did you read this in?

 

[Tangee]

Luke!!! Before you do that to your sebae you need to bring it to me, just like you offered! Please don't cut it up! :shock: I'll give it a safe and scissor free home .

Susie

 

[northstaraquatics]

Anthony,
I saw a video called "Reef of Riches" on a series called "Equator" on HD Theater that was a melting pot of four converging currents and had everything mixed together in Raja Ampat (near Fiji?).
I was never quite clear on some of the cutting techniques mention in the book. I do like letting (my version of) nature take its own course for the most part.

Thanks,
Jon

My opinions about the unnatural keeping of anemones in tanks with coral (let alone propagating them) is well documented on most every message board I've ever participated on if anyone is interested to do a keyword search and followup.

But again... kudos for the effort overall

 

[spongebob lover]

Anthony,
I saw a video called "Reef of Riches" on a series called "Equator" on HD Theater that was a melting pot of four converging currents and had everything mixed together in Raja Ampat (near Fiji?).
I was never quite clear on some of the cutting techniques mention in the book. I do like letting (my version of) nature take its own course for the most part.

Thanks,

dood, that show is awesome !!! i have only watched it twice and i love how clear you can see everything.

 

[northstaraquatics]

I ordered a copy of the video on dvd. I hope it works out...

Jon

 

[Slickdonkey]

Wow, that looks brutal! Do anemones feel pain? Ouch!

 

[ScottT1980]

Wow, that looks brutal! Do anemones feel pain? Ouch!

While I certainly defer to the experts, I would assume it is not much different than fragging a coral (from a "pain" standpoint). A meshwork of nerve cells, no central nervous system, etc... In fact, it is probably less "cruel" than killing a roach or other arthropod. Ultimately and as far as I know, the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committees (IACUC) doesn't have a problem with using any invertebrates to date. I tend to think that IACUC can go a bit overboard sometimes, and if they don't have a problem, well...


Regardless, very interesting thread. I have never heard of such a technique but it makes me a bit less hesitant to remove two of my BTA clones that are currently wreaking havoc on corals in the tank I maintain. Thanks for taking one for the team!

Take er easy
Scott T.

 

[JasonD]

I had a RBTA that took up half of my 70 gallon tank. I waited patiently for it to split (I don't have much patience). I decided to cut it (the one I have was cut from another members tank). I removed the rock from the water. I sliced the RBTA down the center (with a razor blade). The RBTA did not fully split right away. It rejoined into an 8 shape. Three weeks passed and it ended up splitting into three pieces. One of the pieces walked into a power head. The power head split the anemone again. The pieces all healed. I ended up with four RBTA. I have traded one so far. I have debated propagating RBTA on a larger scale. This would require a different tank. It is bad enough keeping an eye on one Anemone. I would not recommend several in a mixed tank. When they move around they can sting other tankmates.

I don't see this as cruel. Cruel is buying an anemone from a pet store to watch it slowly dye in your tank. Then to try it again and again until you can finally keep one alive, if ever.

 

[Electrokate]

There are a ton of anemones in the seattle area, all probably descended from Jon (Northstaraquatics) who has this incredible orange RBTA that splits like aiptasia

I think it's possible that there are more species of RBTA than just the one we assume we are dealing with (quadricolor). Some split often and others hardly at all. I'd like some DNA studies to see if there really is only one species here, and what reproductive rates actually exist in the wild before the trade continues. I can't believe they are imported considering most will die. Even as an aquarium keeper I am opposed to them being in the trade. Most will die. What the collectors, wholesalers, transshippers, and stores don't kill the customers usually do later. The wild ones are not guaranteed to do well and are usually paler... so why buy wild when we can get a clone of Jon's line for 20 or 30 bucks? We need people to get more of these highly reproductive orange RBTA's to market nationally.

Lately I am seeing dyed anemones in stores again, which makes me sick. Asked the owner of one LFS, he was trying to get the ones Jon has because he has one in a display tank and didn't know where it came from... the importer promised these colored anemones were them. They left out the word manually as in "manually colored". The customers don't want weak sickly dyed yellow ones or pale green ones, they want BAM IN YOUR FACE ORANGE like Jon's

So I guess if your "Jon's stock" RBTA is too big but you don't want to totally get rid of it inducing split would be one way to go. I feed mine weekly and get regular splits, then give away the larger half. This works fine for me, as soon as it gets big it splits again. No need to cut. If you really want to sell a lot of anemones then I suppose cutting is preferable but seems like either way you get a ton of anemones in the end and my way is definitely easier with shorter recovery time for the animal. I am setting up an anemone tank just for them, with screen to protect them from the possibility of pump damage and halides so they can split a lot, I want to make sure that LFS never orders another dyed RBTA again!

If you need to get it off a rock there are easier ways that wouldn't damage the foot or slime it as much. I do this very slowly and gently tickling with my finger tips... Getting it started is tricky though. Use a blunt object that is not too hard or pointy to pick up a small part of the foot, lifting it gently and slowly off the rock. Soon as you can get your gloved hand under there then it gets easier and the foot can be teased off. Don't hurry with the last little bit though as it can tear and bacteria could infect it if your system isn't perfect, theoretically... Haven't tried the icecube, will have to! Sounds easier

I had some sick zoanthids, they were coated with weird stuff, closed months and also had hair algae on them. An RBTA then wandered over and sat on the whole colony. I thought they were goners and wondered if I should peel up the RBTA but at that point it was worth more than the zo's... a few weeks later the RBTA moved off. Guess what? The zo's are clean and cured! The mushrooms on the rock are a tad smaller but everything is open and healthy. Go figure
Kate

 

[liveforphysics]

Well, the babys are all looking really stable and healthy. Its only been 2 days now, and unless you manually grab and unfold to look for the 80% healed cut line, you would never know they had recently been cut off the big mama.

The guy that went into the powerhead was sucked in hard enough to entangle a maxijet1200 and stop it from turning... And today there is little to no visible damage on them.

So, in the name of experimentation, I'm going to do a no aclimation swap into one of my other tanks that has different salinity. I am doing this to see how durable the healing frags are, or to find what conditions are the least favorable to the healing process. After observations have been taken from his trip into (relitive to him)hyposalinity, I will drop him back into the(relitive to him)hypersalinity he is living in now.

If I dont get too lazy since this is early morning for me I will take some update pics and post them. I might even manually grab a couple of them in the water and take pics of the healing cut line.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

I'm going to do a no aclimation
swap into one of my other tanks that has different salinity. I am doing
this to see how durable the healing frags are, or to find what
conditions are the least favorable to the healing process

I'm sorry... I have to say it: bunk! And irrespsonsible.

Just a bunk experiment and unecessary stress of a living animal of a defined/limited resource. The complete opposite of what we are trying to accomplish as stewards of the reef and as conscientious aquarists.

I promise you that you can contribute more to the reef and to the hobby by focussing your time and energies on improved techniques for keeping and breeding these cnidarians.

Blindly taking shots to see what it will take to kill them or how much abuse they can take is not your best use of time or their captive lives.

I do hope you see things differently in time... sooner rather than later.. We have enough aquarists killing anemones as it it.

 

[liveforphysics]

How do we learn what things to avoid if we dont experiment? Wouldnt osmotic pressure change effects on healing anemones be good data to have? Perticularly for the people who plan to pull them out of a tank, cut them, and place them in a differnt tank to heal?

I imagine the first time you cut one in half you were flooded by similar responses to your own.

Unless you have data for the experiment allready, I think it needs to be found.

 

[steve-s]

It would be an unworthy experiment and really no suprise to the outcome. While it is possible the animal may survive, it is not in the best interest of their otherwise long lived existance. Anemones like all invertebrates are osmoconformers, not osmoregulators so nothing possitive would really be accomplished.

Cheers
Steve

 

[spongebob lover]

Electrokate, you forgot to mention that Mojo (Mike) has given free RBTAs to people so some might come from him too.

 

[NaH2O]

How do we learn what things to avoid if we dont experiment? Wouldnt osmotic pressure change effects on healing anemones be good data to have? Perticularly for the people who plan to pull them out of a tank, cut them, and place them in a differnt tank to heal?

Placing the already stressed anemone into a hyposaline condition would certainly stress it further. I just don't see this as responsible experimentation at all. As for folks taking anemones out of their tank, fragging them and placing into separate vessels....hopefully, the people doing this would be certain the separate vessel for the anemone would be of the same water parameters as the tank the anemone was removed from.

 

[liveforphysics]

My RTBAs did come from Mojo (Mike). He is quite a cool guy.

Being into this hobby 95% because I like to experiment, I dropped the least healed looking frag into the tank with lower salinity and about 4 deg cooler temp. I tossed it in before I left for class and it looked pretty bad as I was leaving. Now that I just got back from class, it looks great, and my percs are giving it quite the loving. It actually looks BETTER now than it did in the tank it was from, so its possible that cooler temps (77deg now, was at 81-82) and/or lower salinity improve the healing process. This might be something those of you who are considering a dedicated propagation tank should considder when setting up tank parameters.

Steve S, yes I know they internally change density in relation to the water they are in, and if you want to explain the relivance, I would like to hear it. The test here was to see what the stress of changeing tanks was something that should be avoided with new frags. I know that the question would undoubtable be in the minds of people considdering fragging there anemones, so I am working to answer it emperically through experimentation.


So far, from possibily premature observation and experimention, I would say that it seems to be a safe and effective way to help save one more natural reef animal. Even when carried out in less than a perfect mannor with sloppy tools and provisions made to cause additional stress to the frags, they still are looking great. I like the idea of finding the LD, leathal dosage (of abuse), leathal disection size etc. I think its paramount to know where the saftey boundries are with an animal, but I am going to just let them all heal up without further stress additions in efforts to apease Anthony, whom I have a great respect for, and to whom I personally owe the knowledge of this process.

I will keep you updated with longer term results.

 

[jetaero]

What is the salinity of the original tank, and the new tank?

-Josh-

 

[liveforphysics]

Using a crap uncalibrated swing arm type specific gravity tool, it measured 1.027gr/cm^3 in the first tank, and now 1.023gr/cm^3 in the second.

They also have differnt lighting, but neither tank has dectable nutrients, and both have more than adquate lighting for RTBAs.

I was also just thinking that I bet the ammonia the clowns release helps the anemones feed and heal. I have a hunch that with the way anemones like ammonia, having a bunch of clowns in an RTBA tank would be benificial.

 

[jlehigh]

You've gotta be kidding me.. You took a chance with a thought you had, interpreted the results visually and are now advising others to try it. Best yet you refer to this as an experiment...

This "experiment" ressembles that of a toddler eating dirt for the first time.. Hey! What if I ate dirt? Okay! ::eating dirt:: hmm it's kinda good. Hey good friend, you should try this dirt. I did and I liked it.

If you like experimenting, then work to educate yourself on the proper and constructive practices with controls. Develop and prove/disprove theories based in merrit. BE RESPONSIBLE.