Guide to fraging RTBA

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liveforphysics said:
Steve S, yes I know they internally change density in relation to the water they are in, and if you want to explain the relivance, I would like to hear it. The test here was to see what the stress of changeing tanks was something that should be avoided with new frags. I know that the question would undoubtable be in the minds of people considdering fragging there anemones,
Um okay, me very lost :shock:

How can you not consider the relavence of rapid salinity drops in regards to an osmoconformer? Especially when they have just been lacerated? In this regard, reducing salinity helps osmoregulators, not osmoconformers. You have in fact increased the stress level and greatly taxed the energy reserves of this type of animal when it needs it most. They are at their most vulnerable and in great need of stability and experienced care.

Cheers
Steve
 
My RTBAs did come from Mojo (Mike). He is quite a cool guy.

there you go, well at least you didn't buy the anemone.
Now i hope Mojo doesn't read what you did to the anemone :D :p ... just joking.
 
Being into this hobby 95% because I like to experiment, I dropped the least healed looking frag into the tank with lower salinity and about 4 deg cooler temp. I tossed it in before I left for class and it looked pretty bad as I was leaving. Now that I just got back from class, it looks great, and my percs are giving it quite the loving. It actually looks BETTER now than it did in the tank it was from, so its possible that cooler temps (77deg now, was at 81-82) and/or lower salinity improve the healing process. This might be something those of you who are considering a dedicated propagation tank should considder when setting up tank parameters.

I will echo what others have said. Making any conclusions based on a single incidence with very few "controlled" and "measurable" variables is tedious at best (that is, if you are a fan of the scientific method). It seems that you are more playing mad scientist just to see what happens. I appreciate your willingness to experiment and learn, but perhaps this energy should be placed more on other people's suggestions than your own "experimentation."

Just my 2 cents...

Take er easy
Scott T.
 
Jleigh- You would find out that this is actually a common procedure, not so much in the US, but in europe. You will also find its well documented by Anthony Calfo which was where I got the idea initially. He also frequently gives demonstrations in front of groups where he grabs a BTA, cuts it in half with a sharp blade, and sticks it back in the tank. I havent had the chance to personally see his demonstration, and I can see from the responses here that many others havent as well. Thats why I read about it and did it myself. I only wish I was onto something as revolutionary as eating dirt, but I'm afraid this is something thats been done and refined thousands of times.

Steve S- You are missing the whole point. My goal with the hyposalinity was to induce stress on the frag, not to try to lessen energy expendature like hyposalinity does with a regulatory species. There would be nothing to learn here if I simply cut the anemone in 1/4ths and it healed, I know that works fine, along with thousands of other people. The purpose was to provide some helpful data reguarding the sensitivity of the healing frags to be transfered to another tank. My (early)emperical data indicates that yes, the frags can endure the extra stress.


Here is an awsome slide show of an anemone spliting on its own.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-11/reefslides/index.php

I think its possible that cutting with a sharp blade could possibily cause even less stress.


As additional info I found while researching anemone farming, a guy in the netherlands adds a 1500watt heater to his dedicated anemone tank and jumps the temperature up to 90deg for 1 day. The next day he lets it drop as low as it can go on its own in a day (it said 75ish). This stress triggers the reproductive urge to split and he is able to MORE than double (because some split more than once appearently) his anemone stock in 2-3 days. Its tough to read the translated dtuch to english pages, but I belive he states that he has only lost one anemone with this method and has produced many hundreds of healthy BTAs for the retail market.

This same guy also says (once again translation is rough) that he dumps in a bag of unpeeled cocktail shrimp weekly to feed them.
 
liveforphysics said:
The purpose was to provide some helpful data reguarding the sensitivity of the healing frags to be transfered to another tank. My (early)emperical data indicates that yes, the frags can endure the extra stress.
Quite distressing to hear actually. I have missed no points, quite the opposite. What is being conveyed to you is that trying to find the breaking point of a any species through purposely induced stress is of no real value. Instead, efforts put torward improved care and husbandry should and always be the goal. All this kind of (for lack of a better word) "research" enourages is that poor husbandry can be acceptable as long as the animal lives through it.

As I see it, you are working for the reverse, not the betterment. :(

Cheers
Steve
 
Hey Steve, are any anemones dieing? Who is killing anemones here? Last I checked I turned 1 large anemone into 4 sucessfully, along with provideing my personal emerical evidence that the shock of changing tanks on newly cut frags was not lethal.

Lets look at the facts here.

I propagated 4 RTBAs which I will soon frag again and then begin to sell the frags to the LFS markets.

I provided 1 piece of emperical data reguarding the stabiliy of the frags with reguards to salinity and temp swings.

I showed that the process is effective even with common and crude tools.


Maybe someone can show me where the bad side is?
 
Your bustin me up :) If they do it in Europe then we really need to take notice lol Thats a mentality i always find amusing.

I admit my dirt analogy wasnt the best but I'm not known for great analogies anyway.

I actually did not call into question the practice of fragging but since you brought it up Anthony's demonstrations show the best practice which was not followed in your demonstration.

I was calling into question your Salinity and temp shock treatment. Rediculous..
Now try poking it with a stick and see what that does! I want to see the emperical data as a result.. ::rolling eyes::
 
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Yeah i have nothing further to say about it.

Not very responsible if you ask me.

Best,
Ilham
 
liveforphysics said:
I provided 1 piece of emperical data reguarding the stabiliy of the frags with reguards to salinity and temp swings.

Maybe someone can show me where the bad side is?

I don't see the value in this empirical data, because even your salinity and temp. were not accurately measured. I find it to be no different than placing the RBTA in tomato soup for 4 hours, not observing death, and then offering it as empirical evidence stating that tomato soup does not kill a RBTA after four hours. And furthermore, claiming that the temp. and salt concentration of this tomato soup was perhaps the reason it stayed alive. Ultimately, what do you or I or anyone have to gain through these "toxicity trials?" Perhaps I (and others) am/are missing your entire premise.

I think it is awesome that your are producing RBTA clones and what you do with them is certainly your business. However, I just don't get the whole toxicity thing...
 
Steve S- Would it not be more reckless to not test boundaries of a procedure? I know of a whole lot of procedures that can be performed in lab conditions that dont work for real-world-joe. If I performed this like a lab, than how can it be usefully related to the setup that real-world-joe (ultimately the person who needs to do this if we are to make a differnce in natural anemone collection) will have to work with?


In my field of engine design, I cant release a part without testing to destruction. This can often double R&D costs for the part, but the part is worthless with out the stress testing, and the limits being found. You cant sell a part and say, umm, its good, umm, be good with it. People need to know cyclic stress and strain and yeild stregnth and work hardening and a bunch of other variables to know that they can provide an eniroment in acceptable boundaries for the part, or procedure.


Am I a mad scientist? Hell yes, and without mad scientists pushing beyond your comfortable status quo mundane bullsh*t, we wouldnt be keeping corals in saltwater aquariums, or comunicateing via the internet, or even typing on computers or watching TV (the latter would be to our bennifit).

I have been through this before many times in engine design and modification. First, the closed minded status-quo lovers, who always seem to be the most vocal, make all sorts of unfounded slander. Later a couple people try it out and get the same results, generally acting like it always happened as a fluke. Then, months or a year later, it becomes common place, and the same close minded status-quo lovers adopt it into their little minds view of what things are acceptable and good and what things are not, and begin to chant its praises like they have been into it from the grassroots of development.

It used to REALLY make me hot years ago, but now its not something that bothers me anymore, its just the way things are.

Fortunately the flameing bares no effect on the sucess of the procedure :).
 
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Luke you need to stop looking at things the same way as you do in your other persuits. Their is no need to find the point of failure here, no need to find out what you cant do in this regard.
The concept of fragging is not to find the limits that the animal can with stand but rather to go with what is known to work with a very high level of sucess. In the case of a living organism we are trying to keep them alive and to further their propagation with out causing their demise. Unlike finding the failure point of say an engine, we dont need to know how far we can push the anenome before it dies.



Experimenting is fine in a tank but you need to make your starting view a little bit different.


take care


Mike
 
I kinda see where everyone is going with it. Here's another example that may help...

We fished a lot growing up. Sometimes we'd cook a pot of rice before going out because we knew we'd be bringing home fish to fry. I remember this one occasion we caught a small grouper. Now I don't know what it is with groupers but the bugger was alive and flapping after being out of the water over an hour! I told my dad, I wasn't going to eat the thing because it may be poisonous (at that age I couldn't tell the difference between a grouper and a rock fish and eating a rock fish is a big no no unless it is a yellow fin) so I said I'd throw him back because he was still kicking. And by golly! when I threw him back, the fellow struggled for a few minutes, but eventually caught himself and swam off. What's the point you may ask? A grouper can stay out of water for over an hour and still live, but it doesn't mean it should be done and that it is fine. It is torture...Regardless if it lives. I think a better approach would have been to keep the fish in fresh saltwater and then if we decided not to keep him, then throw him back. Atleast he wouldn't suffer as much. The same with the anemone...He under went enough stress IMO with the cut, why add to it to test it's limits. No need and no point really. It accomplishes nothing IMO. I'd try and test for ways if any to help make conditions less stressful. Hope that made sense:)
 
I propagated 4 RTBAs which I will soon frag again and then begin to sell the frags to the LFS markets.
Hmm sounds to me like I be having a commission percentage a coming:D


Mike
 
Ok Ok folks lets calm this down a bit. I can tell you personally I think this thread has served a great purpose is teaching folks, this is way I have no problem leaving it up. It shows the do's and donts with good explaination. Lets just not get to emotional about it....OK??


thanks


Mike
 
i understand peoples concern for the animals we keep, but this type of "backyard" or "crude" experimentation is what has taught us the level of care and the amount of various elements our corals and other marine invertibrates need to survive. just because the various "farms" of marine animals dont send videos of their crude methods to us doesnt mean they dont exist. many marine aquarists would be horrified at the actual methods used, past and present, to maximize profit, sometimes at the animals expense. im not suggesting we should all start experimenting to death our animals, but this is exactly the kind of thing commercial farmers do. we drive this ourselves by our constant begging for cheaper livestock, and need to replace the ones who didnt survive our crude knowledge of how to keep them. at lease these animals are allowed to live. this is far better treatment than the anemones receive from the butterfly fish, and others in the wild!
 

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